Forming pit building group in CA for BS

[Oakes]

I use the OC cards, the support for Keyemulation is very basic. It will work for simple commands (like "m" for master warning button). There is for instance no way to send left/right shift or ctrl only shift and ctrl are available. However if the PCIP delivers direct access to the sim then the OC cards will likely be a good solution.

 

/oakes

[Swetrekki]

well to be honest my "pit chair" since it is nothing else at the moment, wont be made just for BS, there is always Falcon 4 ;)

But we just bought a house so there will definitely give me more room for a permanent simpit, and then a more serious installation is a must...

BTW, i downloaded your lovely weapons panel. nice work!

 

// Trekki

[JimMack]

well to be honest my "pit chair" since it is nothing else at the moment, wont be made just for BS, there is always Falcon 4 ;)

But we just bought a house so there will definitely give me more room for a permanent simpit, and then a more serious installation is a must...

BTW, i downloaded your lovely weapons panel. nice work!

 

// Trekki

 

I guess you have seen this configuration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL9dLB_5dT0

The Ultimate would be a simpit with this Kit!

[CAT_101st]

Isn't the shkval zoom in the actual KA50 collective just a toggle switch for 7x or 23x, two positions, like the maverick zoom in A-10 also two positions.

 

Don't we just send the desired zoom level once each time? Why is there a need for press and hold down? If you use a toggle you can set the two positions. Even if you use a lever or a push button, there should be a way to program that switch/button to toggle the two values alternatively. I don't understand the issue here.

 

You are %100 right. I have the Hat on my x52 throtle up/down set for theas two comands.

[Swetrekki]

Yes JimMack, i've seen that one, thats not a chair, thats a fullblown ceritifed monster.

[HitchHikingFlatlander]

swetrekki, I understand your situation I just bought a house and are looking at building something bigger and better. We guys love bells and whistles!

[rocketeer]

I guess you have seen this configuration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uL9dLB_5dT0

The Ultimate would be a simpit with this Kit!

 

 

Have the motion platform is cool, but the switches are just some GF panels. I say the really ultimate pit will be Triggerhappy's pit of all BS panels, his super cool collective, cyclic, cut-off valves, rotor brake etc. and the motion platform. now this is then ultimate.

 

I just have to give it to Trigger for his dedication and his superb workmanship. :thumbup:

[rocketeer]

Calling Trigger, 33 Sniper or Oakes etc. ie. those making some pit and also have OC.

 

If you have the russian BS and OC, can you test if you can get the HUD or TV brightness knob to work with a pot or encoder? Cat says the TV brightness knob in the sim doesn't work with rotaries in X52 as axis, and we think it may not work with pots. If you guys have OC and BS sim and encoders or pot board for OC, please try if either pot or encoders will work, or it's currently a limitation of the sim. I am thinking if the pot or encoder can emulate keyboard commands, then the knob should be made to work since it's mimicking a KB entry when rotating it.

 

Appreciate if someone can test it out. We are trying to figure which board to use, and even which switch to use for these knobs.

[Swetrekki]

rocketeer, i think JimMack meant that the ultimate would be a simpit, like the once trigger is building WITH a motion platform similar to that simchair...

 

Trigger deserves loads of cred! no shadow on him.

[Alex_rcpilot]

I think I may be of some help with the electronic part - not including USB yet but I will work hard on it.

 

If you guys would like to count me in, please PM me with your MSN info. Thanks.

[Slayer]

Calling Trigger, 33 Sniper or Oakes etc. ie. those making some pit and also have OC.

 

If you have the russian BS and OC, can you test if you can get the HUD or TV brightness knob to work with a pot or encoder? Cat says the TV brightness knob in the sim doesn't work with rotaries in X52 as axis, and we think it may not work with pots. If you guys have OC and BS sim and encoders or pot board for OC, please try if either pot or encoders will work, or it's currently a limitation of the sim. I am thinking if the pot or encoder can emulate keyboard commands, then the knob should be made to work since it's mimicking a KB entry when rotating it.

 

Appreciate if someone can test it out. We are trying to figure which board to use, and even which switch to use for these knobs.

 

Cat is correct, you cant assign the brightness knobs to an axis but I did get them to work on X52 pro by changing the mousewheel to bands then assign the keyboard equivelant keypress to mousewheel up and mousewheel down in the saitek software.

 

I use the mouse wheel to adjust the target gate size for the shkval and it works great. You can do the same for HUD brightness or TV brightness. No fancy hardware required. :)

 

It would be nice if they would patch the game to allow axis to be used for that purpose though, since the Blackshark doesn't trim like a conventional aircraft the extra trim wheels on the throttle are unused.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Slayer

[Alex_rcpilot]

Hey rocketeer and Slayer, I think there's a good way to resolve this problem and all similar probs. It's called a rotary encoder which works the same way as a mouse wheel. Such off-the-shelf components are REAL cheap.

 

In this picture, I'd recommend using the one at the bottom left corner for more convenience.

 

There are 3 pins on most of such things, and some have 2 more for a switch (you can press the shaft).

 

The principle is simple: out of the 3 basic pins, one of them needs to be grounded, and the other 2 pulled up to Vcc with 10K resistors. As the shaft rotates, the 2 pins produce output signal as shown below, depending on the direction of rotation:

A cheap 74HC logic chip is required to convert this signal into two separate keystroke signals. And when you feed that into the IO card, they act like two individual buttons, just assign zoom + and - commands to them.

[CAT_101st]

Yes that would work great with the Rotery-5 from hagstroms.

http://www.hagstromelectronics.com/products/rotary5.html

 

The problem I have found is finding a rotery that allows 360 dagres of rotation. the ones from NKK only allow up to 90 dagres. The only whay that i am going to be happy is if DCS changes the game to alow a axis to be asined to the adjusting knobs.

[Alex_rcpilot]

Well that's weird, CAT. Such kind of rotaries are supposed to have unlimited rotation ability just like the mouse wheel. Only potentiometers need rotation limits.

By the way did I read that price tag wrong? 49.95USD? It's like highway robbery.

 

Yea it can't be better if ED could make adjustment to suit that function to axis inputs. But if you guys still need the hardware solution, I'd be glad to draw some simple schematics. As for the components, you just need to look at the right place. America is a place where all things are possible. Not to mention that you've got Silicon valley in C.A.

 

I'm putting up a thread in an electronic forum for some useful info. Will let you know soon as I it.

[Alex_rcpilot]

cute avatar, CAT:megalol:

[rocketeer]

By the way did I read that price tag wrong? 49.95USD? It's like highway robbery.

 

Alex, that's the price for the encoder board, not the encoder itself. I think that the average market price for encoder boards. They tend to be more ex than keyboard emulator boards. The encoder card from OC is 22 EUR, and it only supports two encoders (unless I read wrongly).

 

I found a gray type encoder at Hispanels.com for 2.5 EUR, part CTS288. I think it should be the type you are talking about, rotating endlessly without limit. It should work like GoFlight's RP48 encoders.

 

I think encoders should solve this brightness assignment problem, but need someone using OC to test it out.

[Alex_rcpilot]

Alex, that's the price for the encoder board, not the encoder itself. I think that the average market price for encoder boards. They tend to be more ex than keyboard emulator boards. The encoder card from OC is 22 EUR, and it only supports two encoders (unless I read wrongly).

 

I found a gray type encoder at Hispanels.com for 2.5 EUR, part CTS288. I think it should be the type you are talking about, rotating endlessly without limit. It should work like GoFlight's RP48 encoders.

 

I think encoders should solve this brightness assignment problem, but need someone using OC to test it out.

 

Hey rocketeer, thanks for the reminder, but actually I didn't miss the part, and I was referring to the encoder board. Judging by the location of the ceramic resonator, and the reset circuit, it's reasonable to believe the board is using an ATMEL 8051-compatible microcontroller chip. Program wouldn't be sophisticated because only levels and edges are processed. If it was to be sold here at this price, few people would go with it. There are logic components that can accomplish this task which require only some solder work. But anyway, it's fine as long as the majority can accept it.

 

Here's the thread that I started about where to find these encoders in C.A. This should keep you guys updated with the replies. The interesting part is what Leftyretro said, I live in China looking for encoders for ppl in C.A, and he's a guy from C.A who bought encoders from China. LMAO....:megalol:

Edited December 1, 2008 by Alex_rcpilot

[Oakes]

The OC mastercard has built-in support for rotary encoders and this works very well IMO. You can map a value to this encoder and as soon as you turn the encoder the value goes up or down depending on the direction you turn.

 

However, when I tried mapping the brightness to an encoder via the built in Keyboard Emulator in the OC/SIOC software it did not work with DCS BS. It worked fine in Notepad so this is something between OC/SIOC/KeyEmulator and DCS BS.

 

Note: I use the KeyEmulator for other commands (like master arm etc) and this works fine.

 

I've used a BU0836 from http://www.lbodnar.dsl.pipex.com/joystick/

for the rotaries for the ABRIS and it works fine.

 

The BU0836 will as an example output Joy1 if you turn left and Joy2 if you turn right.

I think the BU0836 has support for up to 16 encoders if you use diodes but you need to check with Leo to be sure. I've only tested with two encoders so far.

 

/Oakes

[rocketeer]

Hey Oakes, thanks for the info about the BUO836 that it can do encoders. Seems to relatively 'cheap' if it can support 8 encoders, compared to other IO cards for its price. Since the rotaries work for ABRIS for this card, did you try using this card for the brightness? I guess the brightness works only for rotaries, not switches, then if you use the keyboard emulator it's more for switches, that's why it didn't work. Or is your KB emulator also encoder enabled? If so, then I could be wrong.

 

Maybe you can test the brightness using the BUO836's encoders? Hope to hear the results.

[blave]

Hi Dave, welcome to the group! That's an impressive list you have. Do you want to meet up when i am back in bay area next weekend? Not sure if you have build switches and interfaced them through sim boards before, but I've always wanted to talk to someone face to face about pit building. So far it's always been through forums. The stuff you have are nice, but they are off the shelf products. Connecting to switches, pots and encoders on your own is a different ball game.

 

Rocket,

 

Sorry I missed your post until tonight - for some reason I didn't get notified of a new post, or else I missed it (I get a lot of email - unlike anyone else here :music_whistling:).

 

As you noted, I have not built anything at all from scratch. Although I'm an electrical engineer by trade, I don't have the shop tools - or patience - to've done any custom work yet. All of my stuff is off-the-shelf.

 

In the end, I want to spend more time flying/simming than building or getting drivers to work, but I would still like to hear everyone's ideas. I have no plans to build anything that is specific to a single aircraft or sim, but want to always consider how to support as many simulators as well as is possible in a "generic" cockpit.

 

BTW does anyone know what happened to the Beta Innovations company? The site has gone a bit dead.... http://www.betainnovations.com/

 

Leo's stuff seems like it would've been the way to go - USB compliant controls, easily used. Now I wish I'd bought some of his stuff before "whatever" happened.

 

cheers,

 

Dave

[Swetrekki]

nevermind...

Edited December 3, 2008 by Swetrekki
got it mixed up with another site

[rocketeer]

Hey Oakes or other experts, it says this BU0836 uses standard windows gaming device calibaration. How about assigning of keys? I guess it's in the sim itself? Are we limited to just simple key presses like CTRL + G? No bands or waiting or pulses etc. kind of tricks I suppose?

 

It says can connect 32 buttons. i know 6 x 6 = 36, then less then last 4 = 32. but i'm not familiar with this matrix configuration thingi. i see two rows, one says columns, another says rows. how do connect the wire to support 32 switches? or is just 12? if you mean split a pair of wires, one to row, one to column etc. to get the combinations, isn't one of them the ground wire, then which one to the row or column or it doesn't matter? somebody please elaborate. thanks.

[Alex_rcpilot]

It says can connect 32 buttons. i know 6 x 6 = 36, then less then last 4 = 32. but i'm not familiar with this matrix configuration thingi. i see two rows, one says columns, another says rows. how do connect the wire to support 32 switches? or is just 12? if you mean split a pair of wires, one to row, one to column etc. to get the combinations, isn't one of them the ground wire, then which one to the row or column or it doesn't matter? somebody please elaborate. thanks.

 

Hey rocketeer, let me borrow the diagram from the BU0836 site.

The matrix is scanned by the microcontroller. Colum lines are INPUTs, and Row lines are OUTPUTS.

 

Given the fact that there are 36 keys in all, at least 36 bits(5 bytes) are required as a key value, which reflects the status of the keyboard.

 

Initially, all OUTPUT pins are driven HIGH, and all INPUT pins are internally(inside microcontroller) pulled HIGH too. When the chip scans the matrix, it will drive ONE OUTPUT pin LOW at a time. And for this matrix, it has to reapeat a colum value reading procedure 6 times for each output pin.

 

Let's start with Row 1. Row 1 is now driven LOW. If any key in the first row is pressed, it will connect the adjacent column line to the diode on this row, which forces the voltage on the column line to drop. And when the chip reads the column value in parallel, it gets 1/0 bits, 0 means pressed key in this row. If we organize bits in a pattern as S1:S2:S3:S4:S5:S6, and keys S3 and S5 are pressed, we will get 110101, or 0x35 in HEX format, and this is the key value for Row 1.

 

*Note 1: Even if there are other keys held down in other rows, they wouldn't interfere since the cathodes of all other diodes are driven HIGH.

 

*Note 2: Diodes are good here because if multiple keys in the same column were pressed - and it happens - say S3 and S9 are both pressed, they would short Rows 1 and 2 together through Column 3. Since Row 1 is driven LOW and Row 2 HIGH, it would be like a short circuit between power supply and ground. The output pins on the chip would risk damage. With the diodes connected to S9, this short circuit would be prevented.

 

And then Row 1 is restored to HIGH output, and Row 2 is driven LOW. The chip reads another 6-bit key value (S7:S8....S12) for Row 2. This action is repeated till the last row is done, and the whole procedure is called scanning.

 

The microcontroller then combines all the key values together as S1:S2:S3......S34:S35:S36. Sometimes in two "long" type variables, or three "unsigned integer" type variables.

 

If this key value is all 1's, then it means no key has been pressed. And if it's not, then the microcontroller will determine which key has been pressed by looking into the "0" bits inside the key value. Normally it takes more than 10 milliseconds to confirm a keypress because of vibration due to microscopic characteristics of the contact surface inside a button. And this confirmation is also done by the microcontroller.

 

As for key assignement, since I don't have experience with any of the products available, I'm not qualified to answer your question.

 

Hope this may help.

[Oakes]

Hey Oakes or other experts, it says this BU0836 uses standard windows gaming device calibaration. How about assigning of keys? I guess it's in the sim itself? Are we limited to just simple key presses like CTRL + G? No bands or waiting or pulses etc. kind of tricks I suppose?

 

No keys. You will only get joystick buttons out of the BU0836, nothing fancy. You can of course map these joybuttons to actions within DCS BS (like any normal joystick).

 

I use one BU0836 for my homebuilt rudder pedals, one axis for the twist and two buttons (one for each foot). The foot buttons I use to recenter the TRACK IR and one is mapped to a cockpit down view (to see the schkval) within DCS BS.

 

If you want to use this for keypresses etc you can use Autohotkey to detect the Joybuttons and send keypresses, delays, repeating etc....

 

/Oakes

[Alex_rcpilot]

Facts and speculations about how keys are handled:

 

2 years back in college, I've personaly developed a customized gamepad compatible with SONY PlayStation interface. There's a simple protocol drawn by SONY, which incorporates several bits inside the datapack on the serial bus. And they work the same way as the "key value" described in my last reply.

 

As for joystick buttons, I'll elaborate what I'm going to treat them when I design my own IO card, and I speculate that existing IO cards are likely to work in a same manner.

 

When the microcontroller gets the key value, the simplest and most flexible way to treat it is sending to the PC directly. With no fancy switching structures like

switch (key_value)

{

case 0xFFFFFFFFFE:

{

.....

break;

}

case 0xFFFFFFFFFD:

{

.....

break;

}

.....

}

 

However, not all keys appear as buttons on the calibration window. In the USB HID class specifications for joysticks, there are variables which signify axis, hat switches or buttons. If the microcontroller puts part of the key value into variables reserved for hat switches, then these paticular buttons will be recognized as hat switches.

 

The only advanced joystick I've ever used is X52. The SST programing software is where the "advanced" magic happens. It derives device input information from the USB driver for the X52, and uses the custom programing to map the inputs as virtual keystrokes. I think virtual keystrokes are generated by SST and recognized as physical keyboard signals with the help of Windows API. If someone want's to build a key mapping software for Windows, he needs to use API's.

 

BTW, I'm not sure whether the button activities are "intercepted" by the SST software once custom files are loaded. e.g, if I assign Shift+W to Button3, then I load this settings, bring up the Windows gamepad calibration window for X52, and open a notepad. When I press button 3, a letter "W" will appear on the notepad, but I'm not sure if the button 3 indicator on the calibration window will also glow. I guess yes. And if it is the case, multiple events might occur if Shift+W is supposed to activate a function in the game, and button 3 has been assigned to another function in the same game. These two different functions may be initiated simultaneously.

 

rocketeer, if you wonder how BU0836 will work on your computer, just grab a cheap universal gamepad and test the buttons on it. The're not so different to the computer after all.