Hornet Roadmap Discussion

[hololight]

I stopped reading after Page 14, probably about 95% of it was NOT constructive criticism, and definitely not what Wags was intending to discuss when he asked for input. Not because its 'bad', but because its really not helpful.

 

As to what I'd love to see worked on as highest priorities are mainly centered around Air to Ground gameplay. Particularly:

1. A2G radar (not just the basic MAP, but the SAR modes/EXP)

2. A2G functions of the JHMCS (critical)

3. MGRS input (JTACs only hand that out, unless you install a mod, annoying to need an app on my phone to convert the coords, or convert using F10 map)

 

Thanks for all the dedication you all show to your product. Keep it up.

[raelias]

5. Follows the guidelines ED set following Steam's Early Access Definition / guidelines

 

Transitioning From Early Access to 'Released'

When you consider your product "feature complete" and no longer in a significant state of change, you may transition from Early Access to 'Released.' It is worth noting this does not mean you should stop adding features or updating your product--you should keep adding content or fixing bugs as is appropriate for your title.

 

Note: If your product is no longer marked as Early Access, the expectation from customers will be that your product is stable and delivers a complete experience.

 

 

Happy Simming,

Monnie

 

 

Adition of 27+ Core features of the aircraft looks like significant state of change to me, please EA, as you can see everyone is aganist you on this one, calling a product with all theese annouced missing features out of early access is just bulls**t, a word play to fulfil a release date you have set and now realize (as we knew before) you can't keep, just admit you can't make the deadline, say it's 2021 and be done with it, it's simple as that, I'm pretty sure almost no one by the end of 2019 expected you to be able to finish the hornet in 2020 (specially both the hornet and falcon as annouced, it's laughable honestly)

[headbreaker_ger]

@Wags @NineLine @BIGNEWY

 

my question is simply, why putting the F/A18 out of EA? There must be a logical reason why you guys have that plan and please dont say the state, because as you see most user disagree on that point.

 

Because you guys bought up steam

You keep access to the game, even if the game later moves from Early Access into fully released.

 

So even the steam FAQ says after early access -> release-version! release-version=feature complete

 

I guess most of us agree ED is doing a great job but, at the moment, there a so much decisions where you can see the shitstorm coming every time. For example the SC Delay gets communicated at release-day and now this announcement.

 

And guess what's happen if a player buys the FA18 because he thinks is "released" and find out its not done,.... just because the EA list is shorter? Because maybe some more people buying the module?

 

Core-Stuff is not finished, and don't give me that "The INS/GPS is working,... bull****" we can't use GRIT, there's no Alignment, we can't Re-Align, Navigation is a core-experince in flight sims and its by far away from ready,...

 

Bring new toys like the GBU later,... finish the core systems ( ALL, now half*** stuff )

 

It was the ED promise to bring the "most realistic" Model of the F/A 18, and sure there's no competition but as my old teacher always said, do it right or not at all.

[hein22]

Although I think Wags' post only demonstrates more the shortcomings of ED, I do want to take the survey, where can I find it?

[silent one]

I am glad that ground radar is finally getting attention :) We need the completion of this plane as a priority . Top Gun 2 will be out late this year and will bring in huge sales I guess. Thats good. The F16 can wait as we need your company to flourish and Top Gun can help in that . It just makes sense. Also cracking ground radar for this plane will open up the world for other planes. Thats a vital step for the future.

It does make me feel a bit hesitant of buying Hind early access. I dont want to be waiting till 2023 for that to be feature complete :) So I guess I can understand your situation. But not be hugely happy about it too :) But Im not a child . I can cope :)

[freehand]

In the same sense, why does it matter what it is called as long as all items are completed and working bug-free?

 

Thanks.

 

Why would you say such a thing ?

 

The reason it matters is because it comes across as lie and a scam.

 

Why are ED manipulating the status of the F18 module, just add a year.

[headbreaker_ger]

In the same sense, why does it matter what it is called as long as all items are completed and working bug-free?

 

I get the overall frustration, but we are still committed to completing the Hornet as fast as we can, and it will be what everyone hoped for when they clicked purchase day 1 or on. This is about managing expectations better, and yes, it would have been better to have the foresight to do it at the start of the project, but as we expand, and as they sim changes, our approach has to change to fit in order to best meet our customer's needs, we feel this is where we need to go.

 

Thanks.

 

So you get the overall frustration, acknowledged the wants of the bigger part of the community and,... just goes and ignore that?

 

Because, if you stayed by your current plan, you will do exact that.

 

And you don't meet the customer, you scam him, because you say "Hey our Hornet is not early access" but I guess you also don't say on the Shop site *half of the features are not here yet, performance is like on your Atari 2600 and maybe we never finish the model like the ww2 war birds and other stuff,... but hey maybe we bring F/A18-2 next year and sure that one will be finished .....

 

Sry for the hard words but I am so angry right now really,... I really dont get it,... you have such a great playerbase, streamer, content-creator,... the only thing I can say,... Maybe it is like so many dudes sayd before,.... ED just scam people and finish nothing,... it is to cry for,...

[NineLine]

just goes and ignore that?

 

We literally only began talking about it this week, we haven't even really chewed on the feedback yet, so please don't suggest we are ignoring you, everything here is being done to provide a better plan going forward, we will look at all the feedback and decide if it needs tweaking further, such as the poll we provided. Thanks.

[LordLobs]

You must not try other games then. Path of Exile, Tarkov, Bannerlord, Skyrim, Fallout, hell I started my software development career with Ultima Online, a 1997 game and that community is still going strong...

 

Having 5k hours in Path of Exile, I think I can say that their community is pretty similar to ours lol. Every 3-4 months PoE comes out with a new league (which is basically a mini-expansion) and everytime the community's complaints are the same "These devs don't have QA. Performance is crap. I can't wait until PoE has some competition."

 

Also, Path of Exile had a pretty rough begining since it's closed alpha in 2011 with lots and lots of bugs, very clunky gameplay and incredibly bad netcode.

The only reason this game triumphed was because of a VERY hardcore and stubborn community that enjoyed these challenges, and kept playing/having fun despite all the issues.

So people would come to Twitch to see what PoE was all about, and they'd see those hardcore streamers having tons of fun, and feeling super rewarded by doing something cool or a difficult content, and the player base kept growing ever since.

So, IMHO the similarities are all there. DCS players are as passionate/hardcore if not more, albeit less numerous.

 

The Ultima Online example summarizes perfectly how DCS World is tied up to it's community. Both UO and Flanker are from the mid 90s (Flanker is from 1995 if I remember correctly). While UO's community slowly dwindled with it's development; Flanker kept evolving: Flanker 2.0, LO:MAC, Flaming Cliffs (expansion for LOMAC), Flaming Cliffs 2 (self-published by ED), Black Shark (that later integrated into FC2) and it all culminated with DCS World, that since it's inception in 2012(or 11?) has had a growing playerbase with each update or new module. In that point I agree with Wags/Nineline. I've been gaming since the 90s, and I can't remember of a company with such a long history of steady improvements and community growth tied up together.

 

@Mods: Sorry for talking about other games in such length, but I felt I could give my 2 cents about Wags' and Nineline's statements.

 

That being said, I agree with all the other stuff you've pointed out @Jabbers.

Valve's EA definition is pretty clear to me. Unless it's feature complete it's still in EA. So, a more honest solution would be to delay the Hornet's release to 2021.

Edited April 25, 2020 by LordLobs
Typos

[headbreaker_ger]

We literally only began talking about it this week, we haven't even really chewed on the feedback yet, so please don't suggest we are ignoring you, everything here is being done to provide a better plan going forward, we will look at all the feedback and decide if it needs tweaking further, such as the poll we provided. Thanks.

 

We have 33 Pages in this discussion ~ 1/2 of the post addressing the "out of early access" soooooo the poll is easy.

 

"

Put F/A out of EA at the end of 20

or

Let the F/A-18 in EA as long all features on the list are missing and only bugfixes and not announced are in planning?

or

I don't care

"

 

If the decision on that isn't final, the announcement sounded definitive on that point, I'm sorry but I guess if someone reads the discussion, he comes to the same conclusion, the community don't want the F/A18 out of EA as long features are missing. Maybe I'm wrong but that's my impression.

 

But for my understanding, at the moment its more sugarcoating "Its complete, we just bring IMPROVEMENTS later" Sure,... ATFLIR is an "Improvement" not one of the original features, working S/A and AUTO mode for the Countermeasures also Improvements not part of the System,... and the list goes so on,...

 

If I repair a car,... I change the brake fluid but the brake pads I put in later as "Improvement" sure thats no problem at all. Who needs brakes if he has A/C right?

Edited April 25, 2020 by headbreaker_ger

[hein22]

What poll??? where is it?

[pimp]

What poll??? where is it?

The link is in the newsletter.

[NineLine]

I believe if valid concerns are raised, management will evaluate and adjust as needed. Just keep up with good constructive feedback, I said this on Hoggit and will say it here, ED has gone through a very large transition over the past few years, the Hornet and Viper and what is to come next are huge milestone modules, and like nothing they have done before. DCS World never goes way, day in, day out DCS World is here and needs attention, it's dynamic and always changing, what looked good a year before the Hornet doesn't seem to make as much sense, so we are trying to adjust on the fly.

 

We are not perfect, and never claimed to be, but our intent is and always will be to bring the best simulation of whatever we are working on to our customers, and everything is done with that in mind, even if it doesn't always feel like it.

 

We have 33 Pages in this discussion ~ 1/2 of the post addressing the "out of early access" soooooo the poll is easy.

 

"

Put F/A out of EA at the end of 20

or

Let the F/A-18 in EA as long all features on the list are missing and only bugfixes and not announced are in planning?

or

I don't care

"

 

If the decision on that isn't final, the announcement sounded definitive on that point, I'm sorry but I guess if someone reads the discussion, he comes to the same conclusion, the community don't want the F/A18 out of EA as long features are missing. Maybe I'm wrong but that's my impression.

 

But for my understanding, at the moment its more sugarcoating "Its complete, we just bring IMPROVEMENTS later" Sure,... ATFLIR is an "Improvement" not one of the original features, working S/A and AUTO mode for the Countermeasures also Improvements not part of the System,... and the list goes so on,...

 

If I repair a car,... I change the brake fluid but the brake pads I put in later as "Improvement" sure thats no problem at all. Who needs brakes if he has A/C right?

[Wilbus]

For what it's worth, the module is awesome but I mostly fly the Viper now, I know any development on the F18 now can be added to the Viper quicker and later so no issue there, both modules are superb.

 

As far as ANY module goes, I'd rather see the easier and important things added and corrected first. I know easy and important are very different things some times though.

 

But like I said, I'd rather see the "normal" development time things moved up and added and fixed as early as possible, unless it's a function that very few/no one will use or notice. It's often nicer to have the core things working as far as possible before one adds more weapons or functions, specially in the F18 module that already has an abundance of awesome stores (not saying I don't want more, just saying that part can slow down and we still have a ton of stuff to play with).

 

I'd rather see things fixed once and for all (as much as is possible with coding) for those things that need fixing. Get the module(s) up and running in their core to the fullest and then work on new weapons for example.

 

This also goes for the two most important things (to me) which is an updated flight model that I hope is top priority (problem is it doesn't make you any money like a module does I guess) and a great damage model.

 

Thanks for an awesome sim!

 

/Wilbuz

Edited April 25, 2020 by Wilbus

[fmedges]

 

Despite a small number of customers believing that it means ‘feature complete’, the term seems to be self-evident. In fact, it is not defined by us but to us from our friends at Steam. It is one that we will continue to adhere to for the sake of clarity and the avoidance of doubt:

 

This isn’t a small number of customers, but the fact that you choose to interpret it this way is telling.

 

Steam early access of for software that is in Alpha or Beta. Let’s review the software development lifecycle definitions.

 

Alpha

excerpt

“The alpha phase usually ends with a feature freeze, indicating that no more features will be added to the software.”

 

Beta

excerpt

“A Beta phase generally begins when the software is feature complete but likely to contain a number of known or unknown bugs.”

 

These are clear industry standard definitions, not some misunderstanding from your customers. You guys aren’t the only ones who work in technology and while wordplay might sound good to some who don’t know any better, some of us do know better. Labeling it as early access is appropriate until it is feature complete. Posting an incomplete module to your store page as a completed one is dishonest and is everything wrong with the software industry. If you hold this community in such high regard and you claim then do the right thing and keep the label on as long as it should have it.

Edited April 25, 2020 by fmedges

[hanab]

Let me tell you what I think will happen:

 

1. Hornet get's labeled out of EA with all those features missing

2. Viper gets in the priority development and hornet goes into the "slow burn" (to use ED's words)

3. Features will take forever to be developed and we will be very lucky if we get the originally annouced features by the end of 2022

 

Agree with you too. If hornet is out of EA at the end of 2020, perhaps 2021 features will be sell as DLC or add-on ? It will logic because the hornet is considered as release.

[VirusAM]

Agree with you too. If hornet is out of EA at the end of 2020, perhaps 2021 features will be sell as DLC or add-on ? It will logic because the hornet is considered as release.

 

 

 

But what makes you think this?

It is not true...they never did something like this, and i am sure they never will.

It would be a very big mistake which would dismantle the trust in them by the community.

They will finish the module, i am absolutely sure.

EA or released is just a label and until they finish all the features I don’t care about it.

[headbreaker_ger]

But what makes you think this?

It is not true...they never did something like this, and i am sure they never will.

It would be a very big mistake which would dismantle the trust in them by the community.

They will finish the module, i am absolutely sure.

EA or released is just a label and until they finish all the features I don’t care about it.

 

You are aware, that ED never has implemented the beacons for the German ww2 birds, i guess?

There was a Post from someone with a whole list of incomplete things.

 

Its not just a label, its a statement, new players will buy it and think its a release version, but it isnt, its not fair to the customer and not fair to the community. You simply cannot sell features as Improvements and that's the point ED already changing the course,.... now core-features are Improvements and maybe some day,... the features will be get lost with the next project

 

And after the last situations, the trust has already a crack to be honest,... bad communication and doubtful decisions, and this is only the next one and there are much to come,...

[raelias]

Agree with you too. If hornet is out of EA at the end of 2020, perhaps 2021 features will be sell as DLC or add-on ? It will logic because the hornet is considered as release.

 

I don't think that would be the case (at least regarding the already annouced features), the A-10C and BS2 is getting a paid update now many many years after they were feature compleate, mt concern is that after they label it "released" development will come close to a halt, as the viper is now, and those features will take years to be delivered

[VirusAM]

I don't think that would be the case (at least regarding the already annouced features), the A-10C and BS2 is getting a paid update now many many years after they were feature compleate, mt concern is that after they label it "released" development will come close to a halt, as the viper is now, and those features will take years to be delivered

 

 

 

Som of them are main features I don’t think it will be so.

Also they will be useful for future modules

[ФрогФут]

However, in the light of the recent concerns voiced by certain members of our Community and in order to respect your wishes, we have released a survey inviting you to actively participate in ranking the 40 plus features we believe are key to the future roadmap of the Hornet. The results of this poll will form an important decision-making factor for our resource allocation from here on and will be the reporting benchmark that we will set our dates to.

Always ready to participate! Where is it?:)

[mingocr83]

Well, quick chime here. The Warthog took some time to be completed, at the end they brought something very different to the market which many of us liked. The F18 and Viper are more complex...you paid for the early access or beta preview, you get unfinished software but is enjoyable and the end you are part of the development that many people would enjoy later on...can we stop the bitching about EA and changes in development? We get more info now compared to 2012 which is a big progress. For me while ED is giving development info every week or so, I'm cool, at least we know the project is moving forward.

[Nick1600]

What about the JHMCS development?

[Silver_Dragon]

You are aware, that ED never has implemented the beacons for the German ww2 birds, i guess?

There was a Post from someone with a whole list of incomplete things.

 

And where are that post?.

[VirusAM]

What about the JHMCS development?

 

 

It is in the poll