cannot reproduce in current Loft/toss bombing always lands too far(long)

[GVO]

I've been trying to get my loft bombing more accurate but no matter what I do, they always lands 100-300ft after the target.

 

I keep speed 550-600+, about 6 miles from target I pull up to 30 degrees and don't make any inputs from there besides horizontal and it settles around 33-34 degrees. Hold trigger and the bombs goes away.

And I tried different speeds, drop angles, how close to target before I pull up and always the same result.

 

I even tried a level auto bombing and they still flew too far.

 

Anyone has the same problem or perhaps can see what I do wrong?

 

Thanks,

GVO

[hein22]

It has been like that for ages now. I even forgot about that due to how long it's been since reported. Maybe others have different opinions.

[Creepy]

Just checking, but your tests of this case don’t happen to all be in a test mission you’ve created with wind coming from behind you during your run in to the target, do they?

 

Since wind correction is not implemented/out to lunch at the moment... a loft is a very long time for wind to affect the weapon trajectory.

[MTrenda]

GVO,

 

That is so strange or funny. i was just doing this today. i set a course line on a range target. flew FL15 @325, set AP for Balt and maintained the fall line for auto drop. pickled the bomb with all parameters correct and it fell 256 ft long. repeated the profile and again the bomb fell 264 ft long. i then increased altitude to FL26 @300. dropped the bomb from the same profile and the bomb fell 425 ft long. by moving the the tgp lock 425 infront of the target i was able to get the bomb with 25 of the target but this seems incorrect to me. i also tried a 3 degree descent when pickling the bomb and this also landed 425 long on the tartget.

 

i get the variance of wind, plane alignment, and general pilot variables but this would only account for some variance in the bomb pattern not 400+ feet of consistant fall long. definently an issue.

 

 

maybe we can get the fixed in.

 

thanks

Falcon

Edited April 20, 2020 by MTrenda

[naizarak]

ccrp bombing has always been broken

[oldcrusty]

ccrp bombing has always been broken

 

I think it worked right after initial release of OB. I remember tossing Mk83's over the hill at 20 deg and they hit spot on. There was a weird bug though. If you were flying in the weeds and your target was above you, the ASL would disappear and there was no way to bring it back on that hop. That issue was fixed but... here we are now:(

[GVO]

Just checking, but your tests of this case don’t happen to all be in a test mission you’ve created with wind coming from behind you during your run in to the target, do they?

 

Since wind correction is not implemented/out to lunch at the moment... a loft is a very long time for wind to affect the weapon trajectory.

 

Hello Creepy,

 

In my last tests, I had 0 wind, tried different targets, even using the TGP to mark a target, if something was wrong with the height (of the waypoint) in the Mission Editor.

And I always made at least 3 different attack runs from different ingress points.

 

Thanks,

GVO

[Notso]

GVO,

 

That is so strange or funny. i was just doing this today. i set a course line on a range target. flew FL15 @325, set AP for Balt and maintained the fall line for auto drop. pickled the bomb with all parameters correct and it fell 256 ft long. repeated the profile and again the bomb fell 264 ft long. i then increased altitude to FL26 @300. dropped the bomb from the same profile and the bomb fell 425 ft long. by moving the the tgp lock 425 infront of the target i was able to get the bomb with 25 of the target but this seems incorrect to me. i also tried a 3 degree descent when pickling the bomb and this also landed 425 long on the tartget.

 

i get the variance of wind, plane alignment, and general pilot variables but this would only account for some variance in the bomb pattern not 400+ feet of consistant fall long. definently an issue.

 

 

maybe we can get the fixed in.

 

thanks

Falcon

 

What altitude does the jet think your designation is at? An altitude error can definitely cause a long or short miss. For instance, if the TGT was at 1000 ft MSL but your steerpoint you are using as the TGT is at 6000 ft MSL, the bombing computer will have incorrect data to calculate the release point and the bombs will go long. Remember that with a steerpoint above ground, the jet thinks the ground is closer to the jet than it actually is. The TGT diamond will appear to float above the ground. Its actual position on a three-axis graph (Z axis) is high of the target because the airplane is erroneously positioning the TGT Diamond where it thinks the ground really is (above the real ground).

 

The way to check this is to go into mission editor and cycle through all the waypoints where you're TGT is. The easy way to fix it is to set all the steerpoints in the ME editor window to zero and that will force them to be set to the actual MSL ground level at that point. I learned this the hard way when learning JDAM and all the points in the ME were above ground and the bombs were missing long. Even designating with the TGP doesn't seem to fix this.

[oldcrusty]

It is definitely an issue. In 0 wind the impact point is all over the place. In one of my tests I did I placed the designation point 200 ft in front of the tgt, similar to what MTrenda did. The bombs landed even longer:huh: I did this twice, level and loft 20 deg.

[oldcrusty]

It is definitely an issue. In 0 wind the impact point is all over the place. In one of my tests I did I placed the designation point 200 ft in front of the tgt, similar to what MTrenda did. The bombs landed even longer:huh: I did this twice, level and loft 20 deg.

 

Well... I repeated the tests using Mk84 x 4 on a column of Smirch vehicles. Bombs set to x4/1/5ft so basically instantaneous release.

Level flight, Auto - bang on!

15deg dive, Auto - bang on!

CCIP, the best grouping! :D

 

Loft, little bit long, about 50ft - no problem for 4 84's - lofting is a bit tricky

 

I don't know what gives:noexpression: The only difference from previous tests was the theater, used PG for this one.

 

First 3 drops:

 

[hein22]

Well... I repeated the tests using Mk84 x 4 on a column of Smirch vehicles. Bombs set to x4/1/5ft so basically instantaneous release.

Level flight, Auto - bang on!

15deg dive, Auto - bang on!

CCIP, the best grouping! :D

 

Loft, little bit long, about 50ft - no problem for 4 84's - lofting is a bit tricky

 

I don't know what gives:noexpression: The only difference from previous tests was the theater, used PG for this one.

 

First 3 drops:

 

 

I don't think that test represents well the issue at hand. You see, mk84 are so strong that makes you think you did a precise hit, and rippling also contributes to that. Try the same test with just one pickle mk82 more than 10k AGL and let us know. AUTO is broken, since day 1 :(

[Rescue]

I never had a mk 82 or 83 on target with Auto in level flight or loft, 0 wind, checked TGT coord/agl/etc. multiple times. Still inside 100ft but far from accurate.

Grettings

[oldcrusty]

I don't think that test represents well the issue at hand. You see, mk84 are so strong that makes you think you did a precise hit, and rippling also contributes to that. Try the same test with just one pickle mk82 more than 10k AGL and let us know. AUTO is broken, since day 1 :(

 

With Mk82 level auto delivery at 10k agl would not be my choice;)

I'll play with more setups sometime tonight. This thing is driving me nuts. As soon as I think I nailed the possible problem, the "code" throws a curve at me.

[hein22]

With Mk82 level auto delivery at 10k agl would not be my choice;)

I'll play with more setups sometime tonight. This thing is driving me nuts. As soon as I think I nailed the possible problem, the "code" throws a curve at me.

 

"The code" is where all the nightmares begin :)

Edited April 20, 2020 by hein22

[LastRifleRound]

Well... I repeated the tests using Mk84 x 4 on a column of Smirch vehicles. Bombs set to x4/1/5ft so basically instantaneous release.

Level flight, Auto - bang on!

15deg dive, Auto - bang on!

CCIP, the best grouping! :D

 

Loft, little bit long, about 50ft - no problem for 4 84's - lofting is a bit tricky

 

I don't know what gives:noexpression: The only difference from previous tests was the theater, used PG for this one.

 

First 3 drops:

 

 

How long ago did you test this before this most recent test? I reported a bug a few weeks ago that was just fixed in last week's patch. The bug was that if you didn't manually switch to AUTO in the SMS, and instead designated a target (which automatically switches to AUTO), the bombs would always fall long.

[LastRifleRound]

I never had a mk 82 or 83 on target with Auto in level flight or loft, 0 wind, checked TGT coord/agl/etc. multiple times. Still inside 100ft but far from accurate.

Grettings

 

I can repeatedly hit a BRDM with a pair of low drag mk82's with no interval level in AUTO virtually every time at 5k ft and below, level flight. Start to get above that and accuracy suffers. Designation method was TPOD.

 

I can hit house-sized targets routinely with a pair up to about 10k.

 

AUTO above 10k should only be done in a large ripple and would never be all that accurate.

 

One thing I've noticed is you need to repeatedly update your TDC designation if you are in POINT track on a vehicle if you've designated far out, and must make sure your laser is on when you do so. POINT track tends to lock at around 10nm. I activate the laser, TDC depress. I do do this several more times as I get closer, and stop when I'm within 5nm. I supposed I could just do it once more once within 5nm for the same effect.

 

The following is pure speculation: I suspect the actual center point of point track may not be precise, so until the vehicle mostly fills the reticle what you are actually lasing could vary.

[oldcrusty]

How long ago did you test this before this most recent test? I reported a bug a few weeks ago that was just fixed in last week's patch. The bug was that if you didn't manually switch to AUTO in the SMS, and instead designated a target (which automatically switches to AUTO), the bombs would always fall long.

 

4 days ago, in Caucasus map. I'll tinker some more with it today. Oh, in the clip above I didn't use the laser for ranging although I did have the tpod loaded. The targets were designated only by WPTDSG.

[hein22]

Anything above 10k and the bug appears. It doens't look to exist if you are at 5k for example.

[Rescue]

I can repeatedly hit a BRDM with a pair of low drag mk82's with no interval level in AUTO virtually every time at 5k ft and below, level flight. Start to get above that and accuracy suffers. Designation method was TPOD.

 

I can hit house-sized targets routinely with a pair up to about 10k.

 

AUTO above 10k should only be done in a large ripple and would never be all that accurate.

 

One thing I've noticed is you need to repeatedly update your TDC designation if you are in POINT track on a vehicle if you've designated far out, and must make sure your laser is on when you do so. POINT track tends to lock at around 10nm. I activate the laser, TDC depress. I do do this several more times as I get closer, and stop when I'm within 5nm. I supposed I could just do it once more once within 5nm for the same effect.

 

The following is pure speculation: I suspect the actual center point of point track may not be precise, so until the vehicle mostly fills the reticle what you are actually lasing could vary.

 

 

Ah great... It's some time ago and I was lower than 5k ft and tryed to splash some buildings with 83s. Sounds like it works now. Will test it soon...

[hein22]

I can repeatedly hit a BRDM with a pair of low drag mk82's with no interval level in AUTO virtually every time at 5k ft and below, level flight. Start to get above that and accuracy suffers. Designation method was TPOD.

 

I can hit house-sized targets routinely with a pair up to about 10k.

 

AUTO above 10k should only be done in a large ripple and would never be all that accurate.

 

One thing I've noticed is you need to repeatedly update your TDC designation if you are in POINT track on a vehicle if you've designated far out, and must make sure your laser is on when you do so. POINT track tends to lock at around 10nm. I activate the laser, TDC depress. I do do this several more times as I get closer, and stop when I'm within 5nm. I supposed I could just do it once more once within 5nm for the same effect.

 

The following is pure speculation: I suspect the actual center point of point track may not be precise, so until the vehicle mostly fills the reticle what you are actually lasing could vary.

 

A fighter pilot on YT said that Hornet pilots are 90% AUTO bombers and above 10k they had spot on results without rippling.

[LastRifleRound]

A fighter pilot on YT said that Hornet pilots are 90% AUTO bombers and above 10k they had spot on results without rippling.

 

Source? Not being skeptical, just would like to see it.

[hein22]

Source? Not being skeptical, just would like to see it.

 

Unfortunately I don't remember the exact video. Last time I said the name or nickname of the pilot he said that he never said such thing so now I'll just stay put.

[Notso]

Anything above 10k and the bug appears. It doens't look to exist if you are at 5k for example.

 

That's not a bug. It's a feature.

[Notso]

I can repeatedly hit a BRDM with a pair of low drag mk82's with no interval level in AUTO virtually every time at 5k ft and below, level flight. Start to get above that and accuracy suffers. Designation method was TPOD.

 

I can hit house-sized targets routinely with a pair up to about 10k.

 

AUTO above 10k should only be done in a large ripple and would never be all that accurate.

 

One thing I've noticed is you need to repeatedly update your TDC designation if you are in POINT track on a vehicle if you've designated far out, and must make sure your laser is on when you do so. POINT track tends to lock at around 10nm. I activate the laser, TDC depress. I do do this several more times as I get closer, and stop when I'm within 5nm. I supposed I could just do it once more once within 5nm for the same effect.

 

The following is pure speculation: I suspect the actual center point of point track may not be precise, so until the vehicle mostly fills the reticle what you are actually lasing could vary.

 

This^^^ +100. They are called dumb bombs for a reason. IRL, there are so many variables that affect a Mk-82/83/84 from release to impact that the bombing computer IRL can't handle them all. Wind is a big one. If the wind differs from surface up to release altitude, how do the bombing computer know? It's taking it's best guess and extrapolating unless you could dive down to the surface and capture the winds as you climb back up. As LRR said, the higher you go, the less accurate dumb bombs become because the variables become greater. Dropping a string of Mk-82AIRs from 1000 feet in AUTO can be very accurate. Dropping MK-84s in AUTO from 10K ft way less so.

 

This is why CCIP and a dive angle is so much more accurate, because you remove more of the variables.

 

There will ALWAYS be limitations with dumb bombs level release in AUTO, but the ways to make them the most accurate possible are to use laser ranging in the TGP (turn the laser on and leave it on) and then continually designate right up to pickle. Zoom in as much as possible and be very precise with the crosshair placement. I actually prefer ATRK because I can put the XH where I want it rather than relying on PTRK to bound the tgt.

 

But even if you do everything perfect, it's still a dumb bomb. There's a reason we went to LGBs and GPS weapons.

[Notso]

What altitude AGL are you guys doing loft attacks from?