Thank you for the new FM

[riojax]

Congrats M3, this patch fixed a lot FM issues, now its feels like the correct TWR and the drag is more real. Some people simply don't understand that and thinks that limited or difficult means real, don't listen them you are doing a good work and clearly this is on a good way. Good job!

[rossmum]

Unless the MiG-21 somehow operates from a different set of aerodynamic principles than anything I've flown, the fact it (a mechanically controlled aircraft with no assistance beyond a control damper and rudimentary autopilot, and with a TWR under 1:1 unless in emergency burner at low level) cannot be stalled by anything short of crossed controls held for several seconds at flight idle would suggest it is very much neither more correct nor real.

 

It behaves like a FBW jet now, which it should not. The FM is even more basic than it was when I got into DCS a year ago. Hard doesn't equal realistic, but it was never hard in the first place - just that most DCS players can't fly anything without FBW handholding.

[Moody1204]

Congrats M3, this patch fixed a lot FM issues, now its feels like the correct TWR and the drag is more real. Some people simply don't understand that and thinks that limited or difficult means real, don't listen them you are doing a good work and clearly this is on a good way. Good job!

 

 

 

 

Have you flown the jet ? and do you have any idea of how it should behave ?

 

 

You can no longer stall the aircraft: pull 30+ AOA and you'll be fine, this in badly wrong.

 

 

 

We have now a broken FM which need to be fix again if you don't want to see the 21 ban on servers.

[riojax]

Have you flown the jet ? and do you have any idea of how it should behave ?

No, and you?

 

You can no longer stall the aircraft: pull 30+ AOA and you'll be fine, this in badly wrong.

The AoA indicator in the plane don't uses degrees, are "units" and if you see it on tacview will have the current real degrees, usually they are near 25º at maximum pitch.

 

We have now a broken FM which need to be fix again if you don't want to see the 21 ban on servers.

I tested the Mig-21 complains in the F-5E and not only can do the same, also it can do a reversal no-power pitch at more than -100º AoA. Please, this FM is not perfect, but isn't broken. All developers are doing their best, and insult their work isn't the way to help us. Show the real tables for AoA, weight, speed, turn rate, etc. and compare it on DCS is the way, but say "oh, it's a UFO" or "this is broken" don't help anyone.

 

Also probably all here are humans with feelings and when someone is working on something is good to make it feel that is rewarding in some manner, mate, be constructive.

F-5E.zip

[riojax]

This is how someone must report:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4253234&postcount=14

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4265567&postcount=16

[rossmum]

Shmal's posts describe not just that the previous behaviour was more correct, but also some of the persistent issues with it that are even worse now with regards to things like control authority at high AoA. I suggest you read them more closely.

[riojax]

Shmal's posts describe not just that the previous behaviour was more correct, but also some of the persistent issues with it that are even worse now with regards to things like control authority at high AoA. I suggest you read them more closely.

 

This post don't describe anything related to the new FM, it's talking only about the old one and its author don't said nothing about the new, please don't use fallacies to try to gain a better dialectical position. In other things, I prefer that you stop to "suggesting" me things.

[dorianR666]

the current AoA behaviour definitely doesnt seem right. you can pull higher sustained alfa without stalling than hornet...

[Walter Paulo]

Help vhf/uhf

 

Good morning, I fly the dcs with the easy communication turned off and I realize that in the rapid missoes it is impossible to give order to the pilots who fly with me in the same mission, someone would know how to normally inform in what frequency vhf / uhf they operate? in the mission briefing this is not informed.:music_whistling::music_whistling:

[bkthunder]

As someone who has bought the MiG-21 when it was first released, I can tell you this:

 

- The FM saw drastic changes, several times, before M# and HB split (when they were Leatherneck).

 

- At one point, the FM felt *very* similar to how it feels now

- A bit before the split, the FM felt quite ok, similar to know but with more belivable stalls etc.

- After the spit, the FM was (or felt) reverted to one of the early versions from the first release

- Now, we go back to something more dynamic.

 

So, I am an FM Nazi, and I lost all hopes for the MiG-21, but *some* change is better than no change, as long as they continue on developing.

It feels less on rails now, so it's good sign IMO.

[Moody1204]

No, and you?

 

 

The AoA indicator in the plane don't uses degrees, are "units" and if you see it on tacview will have the current real degrees, usually they are near 25º at maximum pitch.

 

 

I tested the Mig-21 complains in the F-5E and not only can do the same, also it can do a reversal no-power pitch at more than -100º AoA. Please, this FM is not perfect, but isn't broken. All developers are doing their best, and insult their work isn't the way to help us. Show the real tables for AoA, weight, speed, turn rate, etc. and compare it on DCS is the way, but say "oh, it's a UFO" or "this is broken" don't help anyone.

 

Also probably all here are humans with feelings and when someone is working on something is good to make it feel that is rewarding in some manner, mate, be constructive.

 

 

If you didn't flew it then just please don't state something that you don't know actually.

 

 

Yes, I flew it a lot since it was out.

 

 

Yes the AOA in the cockpit isn't reliable but still you can pull too many AOA (in fact as much as you want).

 

Since last update it's a lot farther from a realistic model than it used to be.

 

 

Show me graph that indicates the tiny wings of the 21 can provide lift at more than 33 AOA and I might consider your statement, but good luck on that.

 

 

The FM needs to be revised that's it, and there is no harm in saying so.

[riojax]

As someone who has bought the MiG-21 when it was first released, I can tell you this:

 

- The FM saw drastic changes, several times, before M# and HB split (when they were Leatherneck).

 

- At one point, the FM felt *very* similar to how it feels now

- A bit before the split, the FM felt quite ok, similar to know but with more belivable stalls etc.

- After the spit, the FM was (or felt) reverted to one of the early versions from the first release

- Now, we go back to something more dynamic.

 

So, I am an FM Nazi, and I lost all hopes for the MiG-21, but *some* change is better than no change, as long as they continue on developing.

It feels less on rails now, so it's good sign IMO.

 

I've the same opinion, bullet per bullet, but this FM change gave me a really good hopes!

[riojax]

If you didn't flew it then just please don't state something that you don't know actually.

 

Yes, I flew it a lot since it was out.

 

WAT. You're 90yo?!!!

 

If you are saying that you "flew" it only in DCS and asked me for the same... PFFFFF... yes... I *used* this DCS module from the first day. Anyway, I did think that you ask for REAL flying, and now I understand a lot of your opinions.

 

 

Yes the AOA in the cockpit isn't reliable but still you can pull too many AOA (in fact as much as you want).

 

Ok, show us <<much as you want>> AoA. I only get 32º AoA on tacview with a very extreme maneuver that left our poor balalaika at less than 80km/h.

 

 

The FM needs to be revised that's it, and there is no harm in saying so.

 

Yes, it need to be reviewed, but don't worry if you don't know it, this is a WIP FM update probably from Dolphin, of course isn't a final FM version. And of course it needs improves. We aren't discussing this obviousness.

[Moody1204]

WAT. You're 90yo?!!!

 

If you are saying that you "flew" it only in DCS and asked me for the same... PFFFFF... yes... I *used* this DCS module from the first day. Anyway, I did think that you ask for REAL flying, and now I understand a lot of your opinions.

 

 

 

 

Ok, show us <<much as you want>> AoA. I only get 32º AoA on tacview with a very extreme maneuver that left our poor balalaika at less than 80km/h.

 

 

 

 

Yes, it need to be reviewed, but don't worry if you don't know it, this is a WIP FM update probably from Dolphin, of course isn't a final FM version. And of course it needs improves. We aren't discussing this obviousness.

 

 

 

 

:thumbup:

[riojax]

the current AoA behaviour definitely doesnt seem right. you can pull higher sustained alfa without stalling than hornet...

 

Please, review this tacview on the same conditions.

 

F/A-18C -> 53º AoA

Mig-21bis -> 28º AoA

 

Regards.

FA-18.zip

Mig-21.zip

[BIGNEWY]

Posts deleted that contained insults,

 

please when giving feedback be nice to each other, insults will not be tolerated here.

 

Thanks

[rossmum]

It feels less on rails now, so it's good sign IMO.

 

I'm really, really confused by this. Are we flying the same version? How does something with no stall behaviour, which can be flown as though it has modern fly-by-wire, feel 'less on rails' than the previous FM which exhibited all the expected stall behaviour of the MiG-21 in line with pilot reports and the aircraft's design itself?

[corn322]

Show me graph that indicates the tiny wings of the 21 can provide lift at more than 33 AOA and I might consider your statement, but good luck on that.

 

 

[Whisper]

The simple fact that you cannot currently whatsoever stall the aircraft in any way, shape or form should be indicative enough that something is wrong, irrespective of which AoA is supposedly the max of the aircraft.

Riojax, the F18 has years of computer assited flight systems to help him achieve the feat you see, Mig21 has none of that. There is ZERO point in comparing both, tbh.

[riojax]

 

Really nice finding, I will try to replicate it on DCS. Thank you a lot!

[rossmum]

The simple fact that you cannot currently whatsoever stall the aircraft in any way, shape or form should be indicative enough that something is wrong, irrespective of which AoA is supposedly the max of the aircraft.

Riojax, the F18 has years of computer assited flight systems to help him achieve the feat you see, Mig21 has none of that. There is ZERO point in comparing both, tbh.

 

I've tried to explain this where he's posted this elsewhere, it was like talking to a brick wall. He's utterly convinced.

[archer86]

I lost forcefeedback with this patch. g940 forces gone

[rossmum]

It's being looked at.

[pierrewind]

I agree with what has been said. The high AOA flying is a step back...

 

One day Magnitude will learn to do flight models.... Maybe

 

I won't be nice to Magnitude. But I think, the split was a great thing for Heatblur. Heatblur has delivered on their promises and brought one of the most glorious aircrafts in DCS. In the same timeframe magnitude has delivered a CEII; to me the worst module in DCS (which I could have been flying way more since it is a very challenging and fun aircraft IRL). They've been promising updates most notably on the CEII sounds for more than a year now... Just for a sound pack...

 

Quite frankly I would not be surprised to see them fail in this buisness. I just hope the customers won't be harmed...

[corn322]

Really nice finding, I will try to replicate it on DCS. Thank you a lot!

Check out my other graphs.

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3550920&postcount=149