Germany Luftwaffe buys Super Hornets ???

[Rick50]

The other day I saw a youtube video suggesting that just recently the German govt ordered brand new Superhornets and a few Growlers from Boeing. These are apparently to replace the Tornados in service, for ground attack and so on.

 

Apparently they also bought a few more EF2000 Typhoons as well, advanced versions to replace the oldest earliest Typhoons.

 

Is this true? It's an interesting development, considering how hot and bothered many are about the F-35 and it's stealth.

 

 

Also makes me wonder if we'll soon see Hornets in dark green and black camoflage!! :pilotfly:

[Wizard_03]

Apparently they want it too carry B61s but it can't ATM because its not yet certified too and they didn't want the F-35A because it can't either as its not yet certified too?? :huh:

Edited April 11, 2020 by Wizard_03

[Yurgon]

It looks like there are indeed plans to do exactly that, but because of Corona, no final decision has been made yet.

 

Two good sources; use Google translate or have Chrome do it:

https://augengeradeaus.net/2020/03/tornado-nachfolge-wohl-split-eurofighter-und-us-modell/

 

https://www.flugrevue.de/militaer/tornado-nachfolge-gesplittet-f-18-und-eurofighter-fuer-die-luftwaffe/

 

Looks they can't get the Eurofighter certified to deliver nukes, and the Tornados need replacement, so the E and F Hornets are supposed to fill this role, while the Growlers obviously fill the void the ECR Tornado will be leaving. To keep Airbus happy, more Eurofighters will come in, but mostly to replace the older Tranche 1 aircraft.

 

Timeframe seems to be 2025 and beyond.

 

Given the Eurofighter paint jobs, I wouldn't expect anything spectacular for the Hornets. But I'm curious if German pilots will get the chance to land on the Carrier every now and then. The Suisse have definitely gotten the chance, and I'm assuming other Hornet operators as well. ;)

[Rick50]

Huh...

 

That's... odd.

 

I'm surprised it would have been much trouble to get Eurofighters to be certified to drop B-61's... I mean, I'd have thought that it might be a bit pricey, but far far cheaper than buying a whole new aircraft type like the Boeing...

 

Now, I get that the Superbug is a mature product an all, and a good one at that, but I've never thought the Eurofighter was lacking in any way either.

 

The Growler makes the most sense to me, as you don't need many, but to develop an equivalent on a national budget into another airframe, seems prohibitive to me. Also, buying a few more Euros makes sense too, if the oldest ones are close to timing out their airframe lifespans.

 

Just a little surprised, since I'd have thought that ordering the Eurofighters with the conformal tanks, and then putting any nuke wpns into the Stormshadow cruise missiles under the extended range Euro's, would be a potent nuke deterent... I dunno, just kinda surprised me!

[probad]

nukes arent something you just plug n play into a jet by bolting it under the fuselage. there's a political aspect of poking sensitive us assets into an advanced euro aircraft at play here.

Edited April 12, 2020 by probad

[Ikaros]

they didn't want the F-35A because it can't either as its not yet certified too?? :huh:

 

That's not the reason.

 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-military-fighter/social-democrats-put-brakes-on-german-fighter-jet-replacement-idUSKCN1PP2DM

 

"Paris, Germany’s closest European partner, had warned that buying the F-35 in particular could derail plans to develop a new Franco-German fighter by 2040."

Edited April 12, 2020 by Ikaros

[QuiGon]

I'm surprised it would have been much trouble to get Eurofighters to be certified to drop B-61's... I mean, I'd have thought that it might be a bit pricey, but far far cheaper than buying a whole new aircraft type like the Boeing...

 

Now, I get that the Superbug is a mature product an all, and a good one at that, but I've never thought the Eurofighter was lacking in any way either.

It's not really an issue of the Eurofighter, apart from being european. In order to certify it for the use of american nukes, US authorities would need to get deep insights into the Eurofighter systems which is not something the Eurofighter nations are very fond of.

And then there is the time factor. The German government asked the US about the implementation of nukes and the answer was that this process would take aproximately 2 years longer for the Eurofighter than it would take for the Super Hornet. Because the German government is so late to find a replacement for the Tornado, time is really running out now, because it gets really difficult to find spare parts for the Tornado in order to keep it in service.

 

 

Apparently they want it too carry B61s but it can't ATM because its not yet certified too and they didn't want the F-35A because it can't either as its not yet certified too??

The F-35 was ruled out rather quickly for political reasons.

One reason was that France intervened, because its afraid that a procurement of F-35 jets by Germany will have a negative impact on the development of european technologies for FCAS.

Another reason is the political situation within Germany and the reluctance of certain parties to "Buy American", especially such a prestige product such as the F-35.

 

There also was some trouble with the German Air Force leadership. The former Chief of Staff of the German Air Force was sent to early retirement because he did publicly argue that Germany should procur the F-35. He then published an article in a german newspaper, where he, together with one of his predecessors, criticised the government for their rejection of the F-35:

https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article188806907/Muenchner-Sicherheitskonferenz-Ex-Generale-greifen-Ruestungspolitik-an.html (german)

[Cunctator]

But I'm curious if German pilots will get the chance to land on the Carrier every now and then. The Suisse have definitely gotten the chance, and I'm assuming other Hornet operators as well. ;)

 

 

I certainly hope so. If the Luftwaffe can get a few pilots carrier qualified, small detachments of German Growlers could operate from Charles de Gaulle. This would strengthen the Franco-German collaboration and the European contribution to Nato as a whole, freeing US assets for use elsewhere. A valuable experience in light of the common FCAS project and a relieve for the US, thus everybody should be pleased.

[QuiGon]

I certainly hope so. If the Luftwaffe can get a few pilots carrier qualified, small detachments of German Growlers could operate from Charles de Gaulle. This would strengthen the Franco-German collaboration and the European contribution to Nato as a whole, freeing US assets for use elsewhere. A valuable experience in light of the common FCAS project and a relieve for the US, thus everybody should be pleased.

It's a nice thought, but seeing how Luftwaffe pilots struggle to even get the minimum flight hours to maintain their pilot license, I don't think there are any spare flight hours for them to do stuff they don't really need (getting carrier qualified and maintaining this qualification). AFAIK it's not very comon among swiss pilots to get carrier qualified either and the few swiss pilots who do get carrier qualified, do that on exchange programs AFAIK. Luftwaffe pilots already participate in exchange programs with the US military and others.

Edited April 13, 2020 by QuiGon

[Drotik]

A small minority of our pilots already got the chance for some carrier experience during exchange programs. I believe a program comparable to that of the Swiss air force would be very much possible.

[QuiGon]

A small minority of our pilots already got the chance for some carrier experience during exchange programs. I believe a program comparable to that of the Swiss air force would be very much possible.

Yeah, that's exactly what I meant. Carrier Ops can be part of an exchange program, where the pilot is serving in a foreign military for a limited time. What I can't see happening is that Luftwaffe Hornet pilots will get carrier qualified to then use their own german Hornets to operate from US or french carriers outside of an exchange program.

Edited April 13, 2020 by QuiGon

[Rick50]

Thanks for the replies, this makes much more sense now that you've given so much context to the decision considerations!

[Wizard_03]

 

The F-35 was ruled out rather quickly for political reasons.

One reason was that France intervened, because its afraid that a procurement of F-35 jets by Germany will have a negative impact on the development of european technologies for FCAS.

Another reason is the political situation within Germany and the reluctance of certain parties to "Buy American", especially such a prestige product such as the F-35.

 

There also was some trouble with the German Air Force leadership. The former Chief of Staff of the German Air Force was sent to early retirement because he did publicly argue that Germany should procur the F-35. He then published an article in a german newspaper, where he, together with one of his predecessors, criticised the government for their rejection of the F-35:

https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article188806907/Muenchner-Sicherheitskonferenz-Ex-Generale-greifen-Ruestungspolitik-an.html (german)

 

 

 

 

I see, It just interesting that the "Don't buy American" doctrine only applies to F-35 but not super bug, because I remember when they said, "hard pass on the lighting" :) Kinda feels like there is some sidestepping and some back peddling going on now. lol As far as France goes you'd think they would have a problem with more Eurofighters too.

 

Don't get me wrong I'm happy the world is getting more Hornets but It just seems like the F-35 would be much better suited to the task of delivering tactical nukes in this day and age, and several of its operators want that exact same capability out of the aircraft. But what do I know.

 

 

At this point it seems like a Canada situation, where we don't want the F-35 "just because" and now they've said that. They're out scrambling to find a jet that basically does the exact same things...Ergo Block 3 Super hornets!

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

As I replied to a YT video on this subject, to me it's quite logical that you'd want to replace the Tornado ECR by something that's at least as capable in that specific role. Hence, Growler.

Then there's the financial aspect (common spare parts) and other practicalities such as ground crew training to make the Super Hornet an expected choice.

[QuiGon]

I see, It just interesting that the "Don't buy American" doctrine only applies to F-35 but not super bug, because I remember when they said, "hard pass on the lighting" :) Kinda feels like there is some sidestepping and some back peddling going on now. lol As far as France goes you'd think they would have a problem with more Eurofighters too.

It's a multitude of factors that lead to this decision. It's only a preliminary decision within the German MoD and hasn't yet been agreed on by the coalition partners or the parliament, so it's not set in stone yet.

In regards to the "Don't buy American" doctrine that is in some heads here these days, I think the F-35 recieves a lot of attention in this regard, because it is such a prestine product, while the Super Hornet can slip through more easily.

In regards to France, they try everything to push Germany to buy more Eurofighters and put money in developing the Eurofighter ECR variant (see below) in order to create more European (especially Airbus) know how for the FCAS project.

 

Don't get me wrong I'm happy the world is getting more Hornets but It just seems like the F-35 would be much better suited to the task of delivering tactical nukes in this day and age, and several of its operators want that exact same capability out of the aircraft. But what do I know.

You and me both ;)

And the (former) Luftwaffe leadership seems to think along these lines too (see post #7).

 

At this point it seems like a Canada situation, where we don't want the F-35 "just because" and now they've said that. They're out scrambling to find a jet that basically does the exact same things...Ergo Block 3 Super hornets!

Yeah, I guess that's pretty much true.

 

As I replied to a YT video on this subject, to me it's quite logical that you'd want to replace the Tornado ECR by something that's at least as capable in that specific role. Hence, Growler.

Then there's the financial aspect (common spare parts) and other practicalities such as ground crew training to make the Super Hornet an expected choice.

That's why Airbus has proposed the Eurofighter ECR a few months ago, as an alternative to the Growler: https://theaviationist.com/2019/11/13/airbus-announces-a-new-eurofighter-typhoon-ecr-sead-variant/

[Fer_Fer]

I see, It just interesting that the "Don't buy American" doctrine only applies to F-35 but not super bug, because I remember when they said, "hard pass on the lighting" :) Kinda feels like there is some sidestepping and some back peddling going on now. lol As far as France goes you'd think they would have a problem with more Eurofighters too.

 

Don't get me wrong I'm happy the world is getting more Hornets but It just seems like the F-35 would be much better suited to the task of delivering tactical nukes in this day and age, and several of its operators want that exact same capability out of the aircraft. But what do I know.

 

 

At this point it seems like a Canada situation, where we don't want the F-35 "just because" and now they've said that. They're out scrambling to find a jet that basically does the exact same things...Ergo Block 3 Super hornets!

 

There are more reasons to not buy Lightnings. Simple fact is, the Germans are never going to get a good deal on them. Unlike the early adopters like NL, the UK and Italy, the Germans would essentially pay out of pocket with little prospect at the kind of offsets that Berlin would want for such a deal.

 

An F-35 buy means indirectly divesting your aero industry, which plays havoc on the idea of developing a joint 6th gen fighter, if you want to maintain parity with the French.

 

Finally, the Canadian procurement is a travesty, and scrapping that tender was the only thing they could have reasonably done, given they would otherwise be stuck up to their ears in lawsuits.

[Wizard_03]

There are more reasons to not buy Lightnings. Simple fact is, the Germans are never going to get a good deal on them. Unlike the early adopters like NL, the UK and Italy, the Germans would essentially pay out of pocket with little prospect at the kind of offsets that Berlin would want for such a deal.

 

An F-35 buy means indirectly divesting your aero industry, which plays havoc on the idea of developing a joint 6th gen fighter, if you want to maintain parity with the French.

 

Finally, the Canadian procurement is a travesty, and scrapping that tender was the only thing they could have reasonably done, given they would otherwise be stuck up to their ears in lawsuits.

 

 

You and me both ;)

That's why Airbus has proposed the Eurofighter ECR a few months ago, as an alternative to the Growler: https://theaviationist.com/2019/11/13/airbus-announces-a-new-eurofighter-typhoon-ecr-sead-variant/

 

Yeah I guess I forget sometimes how much politics come in too play during fighter procurement. :wacko: It seems to me if we’re deciding that F-35 is not for us then why not throw all the eggs in the Eurofighter basket? Since it’ll both help their industry going forward and give them the capacity they need.

 

The only reason we’re talking super hornet is because, like most US 4th gen fighters, it’s a fully mature system, but the reason it’s fully mature is because the US operators completely committed to it. When they needed a new capability they retrofitted it, rather then look for a completely new airframe.

 

That could have been the Eurofighter if they had wanted. Then it wouldn’t be the list of “planned” or “wish list of capabilities” that it’s become. It’d be a fully mature combat system like the hornet or eagle etc. That would, in and of itself, save money as the jet would be much more attractive to third parties as the developmental work would already be finished and you have a complete package with no strings attached that you can market to other nations.

 

But decisions like this end up costing you in the long run because you have to start from scratch every time you want something. You either spend a lot at the beginning of development and save money later or you spend a lot all the time lol :)

[QuiGon]

Yeah I guess I forget sometimes how much politics come in too play during fighter procurement. :wacko: It seems to me if we’re deciding that F-35 is not for us then why not throw all the eggs in the Eurofighter basket? Since it’ll both help their industry going forward and give them the capacity they need.

Because this:

The only reason we’re talking super hornet is because, like most US 4th gen fighters, it’s a fully mature system, but the reason it’s fully mature is because the US operators completely committed to it. When they needed a new capability they retrofitted it, rather then look for a completely new airframe.

The German government has neglcted the decision for a Tornado sucessor for too long and now it needs a replacement ASAP. The Eurofighter ECR would have to be developed first and this means a lot of risk and probably much longer timeframe. That's why it will be the Super Hornet and Growler.

[TLTeo]

That could have been the Eurofighter if they had wanted. Then it wouldn’t be the list of “planned” or “wish list of capabilities” that it’s become.

 

 

To be fair to the Typhoon, it's a much newer platform than the Eagle developed by countries who invest far less in military spending. It's also expected to stay in service for at least another ~20 years, so many of those upgrades will likely come, just not quickly.

 

 

Plus, it's not like there haven't been any fancy developments of the Eagle that went nowhere for example. You had all sorts of fancy CFT designs and configurations, a bunch of "stealth Eagle" ideas, thrust vectoring, etc. It's just that things these days are much more visible than a few years ago.

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

That's why Airbus has proposed the Eurofighter ECR a few months ago, as an alternative to the Growler: https://theaviationist.com/2019/11/13/airbus-announces-a-new-eurofighter-typhoon-ecr-sead-variant/

Ah, I wasn't aware of that. Cheers!

[QuiGon]

The German defense minister informed the defense comitee of the German federal parliament yesterday about her decision to buy:

 

• 93 additional Eurofighters (the Luftwaffe currently has 141 Eurofighters) as follows:
  
  • 38 Tranche 4 Eurofighters as a replacement for Tranche 1 Eurofighters.
    
  • 40 Eurofighters (I assume Tranche 4 as well) as a replacement for the Tornado IDS (excluding the nuclear role).
    
  • The option to buy 15 Eurofighter ECR (which would have to be developed first) as a replacement for the Tornado ECR.
    

   

  [*]30 F/A-18F Super Hornet Block III as a replacement for the Tornado IDS (including the nuclear role).

  [*]15 E/A-18G Growler as a replacement for the Tornado ECR.

Source: https://augengeradeaus.net/2020/04/eurofighter-als-rueckgrat-der-luftwaffe-us-modell-f-18-als-brueckenloesung-zusammenfassung/ (german)

 

 

Criticsm for that deal is getting louder now from the oposition, but also from some parts of the SPD (Merkels coalition partner). The parliament will have to agree on the deal before it can actually take effect... :music_whistling:

The german MOD will now negotiate the details with Boeing (which can take up to two years) and then the parliament is going to decide on it. The plan is to replace the last Tornados by 2030, starting with the first Hornet deliveries in the 2nd half of the 2020s.

Edited April 22, 2020 by QuiGon

[QuiGon]

Here's a nice video, that explains in much more detail than I could write down here on the forums, why it's not a sure thing at all, that Germany will end up buying Super Hornets:

 

 

All those issues with inner german politics that might prevent Germany acquiring Super Hornets in the end, have not really been mentioned in international media reports about this, as most of them are not aware about those difficulties in German military acquisition processes.

Edited April 26, 2020 by QuiGon

[philstyle]

Here's a nice video, that explains in much more detail than I could write down here on the forums, why it's not a sure thing at all, that Germany will end up buying Super Hornets:

 

 

Blimey, I am 2 minutes in and I've heard more about what's going on on that YT channel and other videos I should watch than the actual content.. . . Does this guy do anything except talk about his other videos and patreons?

[six.dof]

In my opinion Germany should keep a small qty of tornado , just minimum training, buying obsolete tornados and parts from other country’s.

Get Typhoon ECR, and start the political process to come out of the Nuke dropping story.

I remember we had to take out the special weapon equipment if going for training to US, not much trust there.

Germany need to be independent from US for defense equipment, as it be used for political pressure ( Turkey's F-35 story), get some Rafale and drop French Nukes would be better????

[Svsmokey]

not much trust there

 

Well , we did bug the PM... :)