Just wanted to get this straight (Controls for AOA)

[Laer]

Hi. Sorry to ask this seemingly simple (and easily looked for in the manual and/or videos), but I actually did search those, and was confused by what seemed to be contradictions between them.

 

 

I'm just wanting to get the official word on the PROPER controls you use to control WHICH aspects of a landing approach on-speed AOA.

 

 

There's two things you seemingly need to control... keeping the velocity vector on the landing target of the runway... and keeping the E bracket lined up to the velocity vector.

 

 

Yet, it seems some sources say to use throttle to control one, and elevator trim to control the other... while others seem to say the opposite... and some just seem to say use throttle and trim to control both, not specifying if each uses one or both. And, there seems to be some inconsistancy about whether to keep the stick vertically centered (and do any pitch adjustment via the elevator trim), or to use the stick.

 

 

Sometimes I get it all to work well (using throttle to adjust the vertical placement of the velocity vector on the runway, while keeping the E bracket and velocity vector aligned using trim)... while other times, it's a complete disaster (...not sure what determines that).

 

 

 

So, I'm a bit confused, and I want to make sure I'm not doing this incorrectly from the start.

 

 

Could someone please verify the proper controls used to:

 

 

1) Keep the velocity vector on the proper (vertical) section of the runway?

 

2) Keep the E bracket aligned to the velocity vector?

 

 

And...

 

3) Should the stick be kept (vertically) neutral, or can/should you use it to maintain (vertical) alignment of the velocity vector and the runway target area?

 

 

4) If using the stick is 'allowed', does it also have affect on the AOA (and therefore the alignment of the E bracket and velocity vector)?

 

 

Sorry again, but I'm going in circles on this one, and I just want to get this nailed down for good.

[MeerCaT]

I'm not 'official' but here's my 2 pence for starters...

 

 

TRIM for AoA.

THRUST for descent rate.

 

 

Even slight movement of stick PITCH drastically effects position of the AoA marker. Keep stick neutral while trimming for AoA.

 

 

 

As a side note, when on final for landing on a carrier use only the 'meatball' as the glideslope/descent rate reference, not the velocity vector.

[Brun]

1. The velocity vector with respect to the runway - i.e. your descent rate - is controlled with the throttle.

 

2. Keeping the velocity vector aligned with the E-bracket can be done with either trim or stick. However it's much easier (and presumably standard practice) to trim so the stick is neutral when the aircaft is on-speed.

 

3. The stick should not be used to change the position of the velocity vector relative to the runway.

 

4. Pulling back on the stick to try and move the VV further down the runway will increase your AOA, increase drag, reduce airspeed, and have the opposite effect from what you intended.

[Shimmergloom667]

Trim for AoA, thrust for descent rate. End of story /thread.

[Preendog]

If one has a split throttle they should use thrust alone to rise, sink and turn, using both hands. The stick is a crutch that erodes pilot skills.

 

Bonus points for using your feet on the throttle while doing jazz hands at the tower.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

If one has a split throttle they should use thrust alone to rise, sink and turn, using both hands. The stick is a crutch that erodes pilot skills.

 

Bonus points for using your feet on the throttle while doing jazz hands at the tower.

 

Really not helpful for someone trying to learn the basics.

[oldpop]

The "Navy way"! Thrust controls ROD, nose position controls A/S(AOA). with AOA "on speed", adjust power to place the FPM on #1 cat (ship going 30kts)/ :)

[G B]

The "Navy way"! Thrust controls ROD, nose position controls A/S(AOA). with AOA "on speed", adjust power to place the FPM on #1 cat (ship going 30kts)/ :)

 

The Hornet calls it a VV, not a FPM like in other jets. The “gouge” is to put it on the crotch of the ship, not the #1 cat. And that is just gouge. That’s NOT the official Navy way. The official technique is a scan of “meatball, lineup, AOA” and you may notice that VV is not in there.

 

Pitch/trim for on speed AOA, power for glideslope. With a centered ball at the start, add power to raise the ball slightly, then bring it back towards center, then repeat. The theoretical perfect pass to an LSO is (TMPIM) (HIC) (HCDAR). Glideslope corrections should be made using 3-part power corrections. 1) the correction 2) the recorrection 3) the setting of the new neutral power point...repeat as necessary.

[Dunx]

This poor guy, breaking "rules"...

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by Dunx
video link broke?

[CBStu]

Dang, the last time he tightened his shoulder belt must have been before he took off. Also it looked like he made on big 360 degree circle vs the paper clip pattern. Maybe because of the poor visibility?

[104th_Maverick]

Also it looked like he made on big 360 degree circle vs the paper clip pattern. Maybe because of the poor visibility?

 

No, its called a SHB (Sh!t Hot Break), the first guy down out of the marshal gets the option of doing this if he is good enough and conditions allow, everyone else behind him does the standard CASE I pattern arrival.

[G B]

This poor guy, breaking "rules"...

 

 

His SHB also left him way long in the groove...didn’t work out so well ;).

[AegisFX]

Here's what I've worked to do:

Hook down when I am in the overhead before break.

Break, gear down, full flaps.

I pull back on the stick to get AoA and trim to hold it.

Roll out on final. Point the VV on the "crotch" of the ship, and hold aoa and descent. I'll move stick left and right, but I'm using throttle to handle descent.

 

A good practice that I dont know if other players are doing, is just get airborne. 1-5000 ft. Slow down and go full flaps and drop gear. And learn to work the trim to keep level and on AoA. Then play with the throttle and see how it changes things. Do a few turns, etc. Just practice this sort of flight. Go straight, turn, climb, descend.

 

As a small aside, a couple of practice servers I frequent have the carrier at 10 its and seemingly no winds. Landing on a static carrier was how I learned with the su33, but 20+ kts carrier movement is definitely my sweet spot for ease.

[oldpop]

how NOT to do it!

 

https://www.facebook.com/kevin.avery.9212/posts/2553005791646725

[Raisuli]

If I had to speak from experience you're pitching your aircraft more than you realize; limiting to roll-only input is harder than one might think using a spring-centered stick.

 

 

Create a dead-calm mission. Once you set AOA it won't move much without stick input. That or change the deadband on pitch to something nutty once you get AOA trimmed in and see what happens.

[Deano87]

It should also be noted that all of the good advice above (trim for AoA, power adjusts Flight Path, don't use Pitch etc) pretty much only applies to Navy aircraft, and specifically the F-18. The F-16 for instance is flown differently because the FCS in landing mode is a Pitch Rate system and not an AoA based system like the Hornet.

[JUICE-AWG]

I have always used "PITCH & POWER" to manage my approach to landing in any aircraft. Realize that your aircraft weight may affect your on-speed AoA outcome and trial and error with different aircraft weights will find you the sweet spots. The last thing you want to do is to takeoff with a fully loaded aircraft and try to do touch-n-go's in the pattern.

 

Try this loadout in the Ready on the Ramp Caucasus mission for Runway 09...CAP9 Missile, TCTS POD, 1-Bag of Gas and 50% internal...or for Two Bags of Gas, go down to 20% internal fuel.

[G B]

I have always used "PITCH & POWER" to manage my approach to landing in any aircraft. Realize that your aircraft weight may affect your on-speed AoA outcome and trial and error with different aircraft weights will find you the sweet spots. The last thing you want to do is to takeoff with a fully loaded aircraft and try to do touch-n-go's in the pattern.

 

Try this loadout in the Ready on the Ramp Caucasus mission for Runway 09...CAP9 Missile, TCTS POD, 1-Bag of Gas and 50% internal...or for Two Bags of Gas, go down to 20% internal fuel.

 

In any certain configuration, on speed AOA is the same regardless of weight. On speed IAS will vary.

[CBStu]

What I did when I started trying traps was make long straight-in approaches. There is an instant mission for the 18 that starts you about 8 miles back of the boat. 100s and 100s of these has me pretty good at straight-ins and I am now trying to be that successful at the normal pattern using Bankler's tutorial. Not there yet but having fun practicing.

[Notso]

As others have said - the stick (pitch) controls airspeed (and hence AOA) and the throttle control descent rate (glide slope). That’s one of the hardest things to teach someone who has no aviation background because they are used to driving a car where the throttle solely controls speed. So its a bit counter-intuitive until you go out and practice it.

 

One of the best exercises to learn/demo the correct technique is to fly the jet straight and level at altitude away from the ground like 10K feet. Get it trimmed up at whatever airspeed you want at a medium throttle setting. Once its flying straight at a constant speed and level with no stick or throttle inputs - then practice how throttle affects climb/descent by reducing throttle without touching the stick. Watch the sink rate, pull the throttle some more and watch the sink rate increase. Now add throttle and see the sink rate decrease to the point where you can almost get it to fly level again without touching the stick.

 

Then repeat the exercise starting again with a trimmed aircraft in straight and level flight at a constant speed. This time leave the throttle alone and play with pitch with very small pitch up or down movements of the stick (<5 Deg). Watch how the airspeed changes with pitch changes.

 

This ^ is what you will have to do when flying an ILS or a carrier approach. It’s the ability to recognize which hand needs to move to correct for whatever is wrong. If you have the aircraft trimmed for on AOA properly, you are mostly making throttle adjustments to maintain the proper glide slope. THE most common mistake is to try to pull the nose up if you’re low or push it if high. If you’re on speed DON’T CHANGE THE PITCH! Of course if you’re both off GS and off-speed, you’re problems are that much more complex to solve. Hence why getting the jet trimmed early is so critical to reduce your workload and increase your success rate.

[Notso]

In any certain configuration, on speed AOA is the same regardless of weight. On speed IAS will vary.

 

Yep, that’s why most fighters fly on speed AOA numbers rather than an IAS - because AOA already accounts for different weight configurations. You certain CAN fly an approach IAS on final, but you would have to go into the performance charts to get the correct approach speed at that given aircraft weight. The ideal AOA is always a constant for a given platform.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

As others have said - the stick (pitch) controls airspeed (and hence AOA) and the throttle control descent rate (glide slope). That’s one of the hardest things to teach someone who has no aviation background because they are used to driving a car where the throttle solely controls speed. So its a bit counter-intuitive until you go out and practice it.

 

One of the best exercises to learn/demo the correct technique is to fly the jet straight and level at altitude away from the ground like 10K feet. Get it trimmed up at whatever airspeed you want at a medium throttle setting. Once its flying straight at a constant speed and level with no stick or throttle inputs - then practice how throttle affects climb/descent by reducing throttle without touching the stick. Watch the sink rate, pull the throttle some more and watch the sink rate increase. Now add throttle and see the sink rate decrease to the point where you can almost get it to fly level again without touching the stick.

 

Then repeat the exercise starting again with a trimmed aircraft in straight and level flight at a constant speed. This time leave the throttle alone and play with pitch with very small pitch up or down movements of the stick (<5 Deg). Watch how the airspeed changes with pitch changes.

 

This ^ is what you will have to do when flying an ILS or a carrier approach. It’s the ability to recognize which hand needs to move to correct for whatever is wrong. If you have the aircraft trimmed for on AOA properly, you are mostly making throttle adjustments to maintain the proper glide slope. THE most common mistake is to try to pull the nose up if you’re low or push it if high. If you’re on speed DON’T CHANGE THE PITCH! Of course if you’re both off GS and off-speed, you’re problems are that much more complex to solve. Hence why getting the jet trimmed early is so critical to reduce your workload and increase your success rate.

 

Just to add (and I know this will be obvious to some) you need flaps half/full for this to work.

[victorlima01]

His SHB also left him way long in the groove...didn’t work out so well ;).

 

Holy sh!*&@t Greg, if that's way lig for you thank God you didn't voice the LSO bit for the new carrier comms. I'd be screwed :megalol: Hope Jell-o's more forgiving!

[G B]

Holy sh!*&@t Greg, if that's way lig for you thank God you didn't voice the LSO bit for the new carrier comms. I'd be screwed :megalol: Hope Jell-o's more forgiving!

 

Timing begins upon aircraft touching the centerline of the PLAT. In the case of an angling approach, it is when the aircraft is sufficiently rolled out and can reasonably be assumed to be flying the ball.

 

<9 = underline NESA

9-11 = NESA

12-14 = (NESA)

15-18 = Good

19-21 = (LIG)

22-24 = LIG

>24 = underline LIG

 

Not me being a hardass. Universal standards for groove length. Enjoy :)

[victorlima01]

Timing begins upon aircraft touching the centerline of the PLAT. In the case of an angling approach, it is when the aircraft is sufficiently rolled out and can reasonably be assumed to be flying the ball.

 

<9 = underline NESA

9-11 = NESA

12-14 = (NESA)

15-18 = Good

19-21 = (LIG)

22-24 = LIG

>24 = underline LIG

 

Not me being a hardass. Universal standards for groove length. Enjoy :)

 

Yeah I know, I was just messing around. My grooves are unfortunately waaay too long. Other than that I could totally land a real hornet on the boat :doh:

 

BTW, its Doc from Lex's Discord