AV-8b or F-16C

[BigHairyGobbler]

Hello. I know there are a load of these noob questions but I had to ask just to clarify a couple things.

 

I've been authorized by my wife to get a HOTAS, head-tracker and plane for DCS so I'm nearly certain I'll get a Warthog HOTAS and HeadTrack IR (non-pro) but I'm on the fence regarding planes.

 

I spent 26 years serving in the USAF (deployed radar and comm in support of close-air support who put warheads on foreheads) and am partial to ground-pounding so here are my thoughts:

 

1. A-10C
   USAF ground-pounder that's fantastic and complete but painfully slow and limited in mission types.
   
2. F-16C
   USAF multi-role aircraft that can do it all but will flying it be a little too sterile and unemotional (e.g. will F-16C fly-by-wire be satisfying or will it feel like F-15C in FC3)
   
3. AV-8b
   USM ground-pounder that has some A2A and SEAD capabilities. Quirky, interesting plane maybe limited due to pre-release (?)
   

 

I'm not looking at getting a USN plane (e.g. F-14 or F/A-18) and leaning more towards F-16C but I imagine it's like driving a Tesla which is amazing but detached from the road and engine while the A-10C and AV-8b would be like driving a muscle car with lots of "feel". I want to fly, not just blow stuff up. Thanks.

[Canada_Moose]

Hi there,

 

 

I have all 3 of these modules.

 

 

 

The F16 is making great strides since its release, but for me personally, I don't use it much due to the nature of so many things changing in each release version as it matures. It will be a great module but I just find it a bit frustrating right now.

As you say, FBW so not much to it. Point it where you want to go......but boy, does she go. :)

 

 

2) AV8B - Love this aircraft and since release its been worked on a LOT to remove many bugs and add many features. Its been a slow process and we are still not there although its perfectly flyable for the most part. In all honesty, as much as I like it I just dont have enough time to go around as Im usually in the Hornet or the Warthog.

 

 

Which brings us to the A10C....

 

 

Still my favorite. Super mature module, everything pretty much works as its supposed to, you will need to 'fly' it and use your trim hat switch a lot and the new updated cockpit is super nice.

Lots of missions and campaigns available as well which really makes a huge difference. So much content you wont be bored for a very long time.

 

 

Better still, wait for a sale again and buy two or all three!

[BigHairyGobbler]

May have a good point...get A10-C now then get F-16C and AV-8b later...when on sale.

[Pikey]

OK, you want to feel the plane. And you sadly ruled out the Tomcat, which is undeniably very touchy feely as a plane, my favourite FM of all the jets and better than most of the warbirds for sensation of flight. So moving between your three options, the only "flier" to joyride in is the Viper. It's not as sterile as the Hornet and Mirage FBW fighters though and it's very early in its development which means its a long term bet.

 

If I was picking a TOOL though to do a job, in a sim, its between the other two and the speed of the Harrier and its versatility is the more attractive part over the A-10C. But you might want pedals. It's also not as limited as some might say, the level of completeness is getting pretty close. But you are USAF, so dont be afraid to go with what feels like it reminds you and immerses you.

[Canada_Moose]

May have a good point...get A10-C now then get F-16C and AV-8b later...when on sale.

 

 

F16 probably wont go on sale for quite some time as its a very new EA module.

 

 

 

A10 and AV8B always go in the sale, usually for 50% off.

[BigHairyGobbler]

F16 probably wont go on sale for quite some time as its a very new EA module.

 

 

 

A10 and AV8B always go in the sale, usually for 50% off.

 

I'll keep my eyes peeled and get A-10C next sale then get others later.

[Konovalov]

I'll keep my eyes peeled and get A-10C next sale then get others later.

Good choice for ground pounding with the only frustration being it is slow of course. But importantly it is complete with a full manual and it is a mature product which has also just had a cockpit facelift which is nice and refreshing bringing it up to current 2020 standard. Hopefully the Harrier by Razbam becomes feature complete later this year and also ED have stated they aim to have the Viper also out of early access later in 2020.

[cmfrosty]

Fly what ever you like. I fly the harrier a lot. My suggestion with the harrier is learn to fly the airframe because if you can't, features or no features, you are going to die a lot. You can take off and land - rolling or vertical, strafe targets, shoot missiles, and drop bombs. It will take you some time to master any DCS aircraft complete or no.

[BigHairyGobbler]

My current flight stick has a twist function for the rudders. Is there any way to simulate rudders on a Warthog without buying foot pedals? Also, is the TM F-16 stick any more useful than the standard TM A-10 stick or are they essentially the same and can be used universally with any aircraft without too much monkeying around?

[draconus]

Of course you can bind rudder axis (in controls, go to axis category) to your twist stick.

[BigHairyGobbler]

Sorry I don’t think I was clear, how can I get rudder control on a thrustmaster warthog Hotas so I can retire my twist stick.

Edited February 28, 2020 by BigHairyGobbler

[Koekemoeroetoe]

I think you should base your purchase decision on which plane tickles your fancy the most, even if it's a USN or non-US plane. That will keep you motivated to learn the systems and also makes it easier to learn IMHO. I personally own almost every module, but lately have been flying the F-16C solely because I just find it a fascinating plane. And eventhough it's no where near finished yet, there is soooo much to learn...

 

By the way, where do you get such a wife that let's you buy stuff like this? :D If you can, persuade her to also allow you to buy some pedals (second handed if necessary). I flew a long time without pedals, but can't fly without them anymore.

 

Sorry I don’t think I was clear how can I get rudder control on a thrustmaster warthog Hotas so I can retire my twist stick.

You could bind the rudder to the little mouse-thinghy on the Warthog throttles, but nothing beats actual pedals. They're worth it, and as I said above, maybe go for second handed. I bought myself a pair of used, but in new-condition CH Products pedals for like €40...

Edited February 28, 2020 by Koekemoeroetoe

[Pikey]

nothing on the WH stick only that has an axis.

[BigHairyGobbler]

Which rudders would be good enough for a fixed-wing aircraft?

[Kev2go]

Even if its not on your original purchase list ID still suggest the Hornet over the F16C just because its in a more complete state. Alot of things people also under appreciate are navigation aspect of aircraft. its easier to orient yourself where you are due to hornet having a moving map overalay option , whereas the F16 does not.

 

ID also point out just because its a naval plane doesn't mean you can operate it from land ;)

 

Marines also operate from land , and well as all other foreign operators of the Hornet.

 

ITs a shame you also ruled out the tomcat, buecuase that is the only gen 4 aircraft that has a "feel" to flying it due to lack of fly by wire whilst also not being under powered or subsonic. Of course the Viper is probably one of the best joyrides due to its insane T/W ratio.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Kev2go

[BigHairyGobbler]

Even if its not on your original purchase list ID still suggest the Hornet over the F16C just because its in a more complete state. Alot of things people also under appreciate are navigation aspect of aircraft. its easier to orient yourself where you are due to hornet having a moving map overalay option , whereas the F16 does not.

 

ID also point out just because its a naval plane doesn't mean you can operate it from land ;)

 

Marines also operate from land , and well as all other foreign operators of the Hornet.

 

ITs a shame you also ruled out the tomcat, buecuase that is the only gen 4 aircraft that has a "feel" to flying it due to lack of fly by wire whilst also not being under powered or subsonic. Of course the Viper is probably one of the best joyrides due to its insane T/W ratio.

 

Yeah, but I worked with and around the F-16, B-1, A-10 and some cargo planes (e.g. C-130, C-147 and C-17) so I am biased a little. The F-16C HOTAS is supposedly amazing but I just prefer these planes as my first...

[VampireNZ]

Which rudders would be good enough for a fixed-wing aircraft?

 

 

Thrustmaster T.Flight Rudder Pedals are plenty good enough, is what I use.

 

In so far as what aircraft - I would have to say the Viper! Awesome ground pounder along with being amazing at A-A, very simple to use - although the whole A-G aspect is still WIP or not implemented yet (proper TPOD control, AG radar modes etc). Plenty still working to get the job done thou.

Yes it is FBW but personally I really enjoy the razor-sharp control you have - especially when using a force-sense sidestick like the FSSB.

View from the pit is amazing (especially in VR).

 

A-10 is of course a great ground-pounder too, but is slooow. If that is what you are after then all gd, just loitering around slinging stuff out. The systems are far more complicated to use than the Viper, or the Harrier for that matter. Many modes etc. for each weapon, you better know that HOTAS back to front and stay current!

 

I did enjoy the Harrier when I was flying it (awaiting the Viper), again it is quite slow but a hell of a lot faster than the 'Hog. Very competent ground pounder but that is it - minimal A-A capability. Then you also have the nifty vertical flight aspect which is interesting and fun.

 

I see ppl have mentioned the Tomcat, which is my personal fav aircraft IRL - but doesn't do it for me in DCS. Jester is completely hopeless (IMHO) and having no real control of the radar is frustrating (for me), compared to the Viper where you do it all. You also need a mod to control the TPOD from the front which is actually really fun to use, but which will be purposefully broken by HB when Jester can use the POD for 'realism'. The aircraft and flight model are beautiful and she is a joy to hand fly, fuel for days and you get carrier ops. Will probably re-visit her one day when HB stop changing the flight model every update, and Jester becomes more useful than a retarded monkey.

Edited February 28, 2020 by VampireNZ

[BigHairyGobbler]

Thrustmaster T.Flight Rudder Pedals are plenty good enough, is what I use.

 

In so far as what aircraft - I would have to say the Viper! Awesome ground pounder along with being amazing at A-A, very simple to use - although the whole A-G aspect is still WIP or not implemented yet (proper TPOD control, AG radar modes etc). Plenty still working to get the job done thou.

Yes it is FBW but personally I really enjoy the razor-sharp control you have - especially when using a force-sense sidestick like the FSSB.

View from the pit is amazing (especially in VR).

 

A-10 is of course a great ground-pounder too, but is slooow. If that is what you are after then all gd, just loitering around slinging stuff out. The systems are far more complicated to use than the Viper, or the Harrier for that matter. Many modes etc. for each weapon, you better know that HOTAS back to front and stay current!

 

I did enjoy the Harrier when I was flying it (awaiting the Viper), again it is quite slow but a hell of a lot faster than the 'Hog. Very competent ground pounder but that is it - minimal A-A capability. Then you also have the nifty vertical flight aspect which is interesting and fun.

 

I see ppl have mentioned the Tomcat, which is my personal fav aircraft IRL - but doesn't do it for me in DCS. Jester is completely hopeless (IMHO) and having no real control of the radar is frustrating (for me), compared to the Viper where you do it all. You also need a mod to control the TPOD from the front which is actually really fun to use, but which will be purposefully broken by HB when Jester can use the POD for 'realism'. The aircraft and flight model are beautiful and she is a joy to hand fly, fuel for days and you get carrier ops. Will probably re-visit her one day when HB stop changing the flight model every update, and Jester becomes more useful than a retarded monkey.

 

That's the catch...A-10C is nearly perfect but it's a one-trick pony and way too slow (I fly A-10A). I've seen the A-10C cheap enough to just buy and fly but the F-16C is so enticing as well due to it being a true multi-role plane. Probably wind up getting the A-10C, F-16C, TM Warthog with F-16 stick and some rudders but that's a little more money than I want to spend up front so probably just A-10C for now and go from there.

[Emra]

To BigHairyGobbler,

 

Personally I can`t stand rudder pedals (I will always use the twist stick) feature. I don`t like sitting up and into a desk. This is why I never bought the Warthog HOTAS which also develops issues down the road with the pot. I like sitting back with a different (slouch) posture with my feat up now and again. The Thrust Master T-16000M is a fantastic stick for the money. So is the throttle quadrant. Yes there are issues that crop up with the optical twist feature but it is easy to fix with a simple screw driver.

 

As far as Track IR goes, I am glad I passed on this expensive kit as well. Subsequently, I bought the Delan Clip instead. Much cheaper and more reliable (stainless steel). Once set up and tweaked it works perfectly. The Grim Reaper uses it and swears by it.

 

In respect to the aircraft you mentioned:

 

I don`t own the F-16. I won`t buy it anyway until it is in release state and on sale. I`ve supported enough EA modules already and I don`t agree with the culture it promotes even though I fully support DCS. Concerning the AV-8B, I have no buyers remorse (purchased 50% OFF). The Harrier is a super fun ship to fly with loads of options in terms of missions etc. She also looks fantastic and is further along in development than the F-18C. As far as the A-10C goes, one can`t go wrong with her in light of what is coming down the road.

Edited February 28, 2020 by Emra

[VampireNZ]

That's the catch...A-10C is nearly perfect but it's a one-trick pony and way too slow (I fly A-10A). I've seen the A-10C cheap enough to just buy and fly but the F-16C is so enticing as well due to it being a true multi-role plane. Probably wind up getting the A-10C, F-16C, TM Warthog with F-16 stick and some rudders but that's a little more money than I want to spend up front so probably just A-10C for now and go from there.

 

All gd, sounds like a plan. The Viper will be more complete when you are ready to move over to something a little more deadly. :thumbup:

 

Attached a couple of pdf's that I found useful with the 'Hog to help you out. Make sure you get Chucks Guide also! - https://www.mudspike.com/chucks-guides-dcs-a-10c-warthog/

TM HOTAS Warthog Stick Layout.pdf

TM HOTAS Warthog Throttle Layout.pdf

Edited February 28, 2020 by VampireNZ

[Fri13]

For a ground pounding, AV-8B N/A is my choice.

 

After it I have not found so much interest to fly A-10C as use to. Yet you do need to understand that while it is not Navy aircraft, it is Marines and it operates from the same way really if wanted. So you might be flying sorties from FOB, but you will return to boat for sleep.

 

Is it a problem?

 

There is something that makes Harrier such a nice thing to fly (once they get it fixed! Learn more in it forum!), and it might be about little same idea that you get your hands dirty with it, unlike A-10C that is more of a computer and long distance engager.

[Pikey]

For a ground pounding, AV-8B N/A is my choice.

 

After it I have not found so much interest to fly A-10C as use to. Yet you do need to understand that while it is not Navy aircraft, it is Marines and it operates from the same way really if wanted. So you might be flying sorties from FOB, but you will return to boat for sleep.

 

Is it a problem?

 

There is something that makes Harrier such a nice thing to fly (once they get it fixed! Learn more in it forum!), and it might be about little same idea that you get your hands dirty with it, unlike A-10C that is more of a computer and long distance engager.

 

 

Yes, same. If you want to fly in a permissive environment, with no threats, learning systems and delivering spot on without a worry, on a single player environment or pve server, the A-10C is a luxury ride if you can accept long times to climb out.

 

To have any chance of survival in high threat environments you either choose a Hornet or something that is fast enough to run, which the Harrier at least offers that to, with a pretty impressive payload.

 

Plus it's so interesting in it's STOL that gives it another world of play over the others.

[Fri13]

Yes, same. If you want to fly in a permissive environment, with no threats, learning systems and delivering spot on without a worry, on a single player environment or pve server, the A-10C is a luxury ride if you can accept long times to climb out.

 

A-10 was designed for a environment where you have full air dominance, but you need to engage waves of the old MBT's with just MANPADS and AAA.

 

The A-10A is nice to fly, and I dream one day we would have it too as full fidelity aircraft (I have firm believe that it wouldn't be huge problem for ED to make one, as the airframe doesn't really change and it is more about ripping features off than adding new ones), but it is not a strike aircraft that Harrier or even Su-25 can perform. While the Su-25 is following the A-9 aircraft designs that competed with A-10 for the selection, it is just nicer to fly even as Su-25A form.

 

But when it comes to support own troops with loads of bombs in low threat environment where you sit in cockpit for hours just to observe and communicate. Nothing beats the A-10 in that.

 

To have any chance of survival in high threat environments you either choose a Hornet or something that is fast enough to run, which the Harrier at least offers that to, with a pretty impressive payload.

 

Plus it's so interesting in it's STOL that gives it another world of play over the others.

 

I will give one huge benefit for the F/A-18C lot 20 and F-16C Block 50, and that is the JHMS. Once it gets A-G capabilities, I don't think many will even think about A-G Radar existing. As you fly in high threat environment and you see SAM launch, look at its position and designate it as target. Then keep looking the missile to determine does it come at you. If it is coming, you let it to get very close to you before you start the evasive procedures.

 

Now we could do it with A-10C if we would get much newer software suit etc, but that is key element IMHO makes Hornet or Falcon worth for the A-G tasking.

 

BUT. If Razbam can get their ideas completed and make a AV-8B Harrier II+ (same aircraft as N/A, just without ARBS and radar in, even their pilot books are same, just mentioning the small system differences) then it should get the HMCS for the A-G designation capability.

 

Now, that would be big thing considering that you would likely need to buy the new module license for the + variant (would be nice to have -50% for the N/A owners!) as you could fly both sorties. Have a complete Harrier experience for the ground and for the air and various times.

 

I would likely not fly much the F-16 or F/A-18 if Harrier+ would come out as while not strike capable, it would definitely get very good A-A capabilities. But then I wouldn't either much look at the A-10C direction even than for historical reasons.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Fri13

[Kev2go]

A-10 was designed for a environment where you have full air dominance, but you need to engage waves of the old MBT's with just MANPADS and AAA.

 

The A-10A is nice to fly, and I dream one day we would have it too as full fidelity aircraft (I have firm believe that it wouldn't be huge problem for ED to make one, as the airframe doesn't really change and it is more about ripping features off than adding new ones), but it is not a strike aircraft that Harrier or even Su-25 can perform. While the Su-25 is following the A-9 aircraft designs that competed with A-10 for the selection, it is just nicer to fly even as Su-25A form.

 

But when it comes to support own troops with loads of bombs in low threat environment where you sit in cockpit for hours just to observe and communicate. Nothing beats the A-10 in that.

 

 

 

I will give one huge benefit for the F/A-18C lot 20 and F-16C Block 50, and that is the JHMS. Once it gets A-G capabilities, I don't think many will even think about A-G Radar existing. As you fly in high threat environment and you see SAM launch, look at its position and designate it as target. Then keep looking the missile to determine does it come at you. If it is coming, you let it to get very close to you before you start the evasive procedures.

 

Now we could do it with A-10C if we would get much newer software suit etc, but that is key element IMHO makes Hornet or Falcon worth for the A-G tasking.

 

BUT. If Razbam can get their ideas completed and make a AV-8B Harrier II+ (same aircraft as N/A, just without ARBS and radar in, even their pilot books are same, just mentioning the small system differences) then it should get the HMCS for the A-G designation capability.

 

Now, that would be big thing considering that you would likely need to buy the new module license for the + variant (would be nice to have -50% for the N/A owners!) as you could fly both sorties. Have a complete Harrier experience for the ground and for the air and various times.

 

I would likely not fly much the F-16 or F/A-18 if Harrier+ would come out as while not strike capable, it would definitely get very good A-A capabilities. But then I wouldn't either much look at the A-10C direction even than for historical reasons.

 

 

I disagree. Although not an absolute necessity people don't appreciate enough the A/G radar uses, especially in the Hornets APG 73 phase 2 which has SAR for super resolution quality and EXP 3 mode to the vipers APG68 v5. which only gets Doppler beam sharpening and EXP2 at best, which means inferior A/G imaging quality and not as good zoom.

 

 

Without having to to cheat with using tacview, the A/G radar will allow you to map out an area, to build a better picture of a wider area of your surroundings before you get close enough to spot and target anything with a TGP which will be pretty important in an IADS network. The radar is accurate enough on its own to generate coordinates for JDAMS or JSOW, or SLAM ER.

 

 

SO if carrying a tgp youl just lock a point with a radar and then slew tgp onto what youve locked your radar on, if you say discover a convoy of vehicles, or notices a sam network pattern by an airfield

Edited March 1, 2020 by Kev2go

[Fri13]

SO if carrying a tgp youl just lock a point with a radar and then slew tgp onto what youve locked your radar on, if you say discover a convoy of vehicles, or notices a sam network pattern by an airfield

 

And neither is possible to be done against a trained military like since 60's.

You can do that against civilians, but even they will learn in time to avoid stupid things.

 

A-G radar is almost as good as your map on kneeboard. It true potential is all weather capability when you can't use targeting pod to make surveillance. And that only against quick unprepared moments.

 

In DCS it will work great if AI doesn't get any intelligence but acts like a 4 years old.