Jump to content

Reasoning for the Ka-50 cannon mounting.


Flanker15
 Share

Recommended Posts

Does anyone know why the KA-50 was designed with it's cannon mounted into the fuselage instead on a nose turret? The Mi-28 mounts the same cannon on a turret and is the same general size as the KA-50. Is it because controlling a turret would be too hard for a single pilot or is it for balance or streamlining?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 134
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I read that it was for accuracy. They chose to give the helo itself agility and used a more fixed cannon, which results in a higher degree of accuracy that the Apache's chaingun for example. I think they said the Ka-50 itself could turn at a similar rate to the Apache's turret, seems fishy to me.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

If you fly a perfect Defensive BFM and the bandit does a perfect Offensive...

Someone you know is going to be recieving Insurance money very soon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To Quote:

 

"The integrated 30mm cannon is semi-rigidly fixed on the helicopter's side, movable only slightly in elevation and azimuth. The aircraft's agility allows the weapon control system to turn (the entire helicopter and) the cannon at the target acquired in the pilot's helmet sight about as fast as the cannon turret of the Apache or the Mil-28 turns. The semi-rigid mounting improves the cannon's accuracy, giving the 30mm a longer practical range and better hit ratio at medium ranges than with a free-turning turret mount."

Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career?

Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder!

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

'....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell....

One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......'

Link to comment
Share on other sites

in order to reach maximum accuracy when firing a gun, you have to mount it on base, as stable as it's possible.

"There are five dangerous faults which may affect a general: recklessness, which leads to destruction; cowardice, which leads to capture; a hasty temper, which can be provoked by insults; a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame; over-solicitude for his men, which exposes him to worry and trouble." Sun Tzu

[sigpic]http://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic2354_5.gif[/sigpic]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The aircraft's agility allows the weapon control system to turn (the entire helicopter and) the cannon at the target acquired in the pilot's helmet sight about as fast as the cannon turret of the Apache or the Mil-28 turns.

 

While I don't doubt the Ka-50 is very agile, I do doubt it can turn the helicopter as fast as the Apache's gun can slew the gun, because that's really fast! Check around 6:15 in this clip:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ka-50 would own the AH-64 in gunzo at medium to long range, and in close range it may be 50/50 between the two due to the manueverability of the Ka-50.

The gun on the Apache is just for spray and pray, just watch some of the videos on youtube...

i7-2600k@4GHz, 8GB, R9 280X 3GB, SSD, HOTAS WH, Pro Flight Combat Pedals, TIR5

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I don't doubt the Ka-50 is very agile, I do doubt it can turn the helicopter as fast as the Apache's gun can slew the gun, because that's really fast! Check around 6:15 in this clip:

 

 

There's a big difference between 2A42 gun with its 980 m/s and .39 kg shell and M230 with its 790 m/s and .24 kg shell. The recoil of 2A42 is two times greater.

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The reason why is because the gun gives a 5000 kg recoil (because it's a BMP-2 gun basically). And don't underestimate Ka-50s agility, that thing can really (aka, been there, done that) reach a climb rate of 30 meters/second for 1.5 minutes, with a combat load (I think in Chechnya it was 2x B-8 blocks), and it does all the aerobatic tricks with suspended ordnance models.

However, the only way the ka-50 can turn as fast as the apache cannon is in the pitch, maybe roll axes, thw yaw rate, judging from videos, takes more time to build up.

Creedence Clearwater Revival:worthy:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The reason why is because the gun gives a 5000 kg recoil (because it's a BMP-2 gun basically). And don't underestimate Ka-50s agility, that thing can really (aka, been there, done that) reach a climb rate of 30 meters/second for 1.5 minutes, with a combat load (I think in Chechnya it was 2x B-8 blocks), and it does all the aerobatic tricks with suspended ordnance models.

However, the only way the ka-50 can turn as fast as the apache cannon is in the pitch, maybe roll axes, thw yaw rate, judging from videos, takes more time to build up.

On the other hand you should in most situations not be so close to the enemy that you'd need a turret gun, the intended use for the Ka-50's gun is likely to stay at range and bombard the target with accurate fire, which the combination of a long barrel, big rounds and stable platform seems well suited for.

i7-2600k@4GHz, 8GB, R9 280X 3GB, SSD, HOTAS WH, Pro Flight Combat Pedals, TIR5

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Muahahaha

 

There's a big difference between 2A42 gun with its 980 m/s and .39 kg shell and M230 with its 790 m/s and .24 kg shell. The recoil of 2A42 is two times greater.
Indeed, it's even more than two times greater.

A fast calculation gives that:

 

Muzzle energy

M230 - 75 kJ

2A42 - 187 kJ

 

Edit: stupid yello can't remember formulas :(

i7-2600k@4GHz, 8GB, R9 280X 3GB, SSD, HOTAS WH, Pro Flight Combat Pedals, TIR5

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's a big difference between 2A42 gun with its 980 m/s and .39 kg shell and M230 with its 790 m/s and .24 kg shell. The recoil of 2A42 is two times greater.

 

Yes, I am well aware that the Ka-50 gun is both more powerful and more accurate. I was only arguing that I seriously doubt it's able to aim the gun as fast as the Apache, which the quote I replied to claimed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Look what happens when the cannon is far from the CG-

 

Note 0:33- what a pitch momentum(on dive) creates the recoil.

"See, to me that's a stupid instrument. It tells what your angle of attack is. If you don't know you shouldn't be flying." - Chuck Yeager, from the back seat of F-15D at age 89.

=RvE=

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Indeed, it's even more than two times greater.

A fast calculation gives that:

 

Muzzle energy

M230 - 150 kJ

2A42 - 375 kJ

 

Yellonet, 150000 Joule amd 375000 Joule seems to be too much for me.

 

How did you calculated this ?

 

Im just curious.

 

Using E=MV2/450400

 

Im getting:

 

Ka-50: 187848 Joule

Ah-64: 75136 Joule

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yellonet, 150000 Joule amd 375000 Joule seems to be too much for me.

 

How did you calculated this ?

 

Im just curious.

 

Using E=MV2/450400

 

Im getting:

 

Ka-50: 187848 Joule

Ah-64: 75136 Joule

Hrm... I forget the '/2' :wallbash:

 

It should be (790m/s*790m/s*0,24kg)/2 = 74892 ~ 75 kJ and (980m/s*980m/s*0,39kg)/2 = 187278 ~187 kJ

 

Thanks :)

i7-2600k@4GHz, 8GB, R9 280X 3GB, SSD, HOTAS WH, Pro Flight Combat Pedals, TIR5

Link to comment
Share on other sites

arneh...

 

yep, the gun on the Apache swings pretty darn quick. Excellent link btw. I watched several clips of gunships. mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....hapy guy here. thanks for posting that, arneh. have a beer on me:drink:

Flyby out

The U.S. Congress is the best governing body that BIG money can buy. :cry:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow. Agility like that is beyond even the MiG-29OVT... Still, I like Kamov's approach to improve accuracy, quite effective I'd imagine, as agility is always good. Still, from a game aspect I'd really enjoy sitting in an Apache and shooting down a Hokum I'm flying in formation with. Shooting stuff that's not in front of you is always fun.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

If you fly a perfect Defensive BFM and the bandit does a perfect Offensive...

Someone you know is going to be recieving Insurance money very soon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Look what happens when the cannon is far from the CG-

 

Note 0:33- what a pitch momentum(on dive) creates the recoil.

 

AirTito, I recognise this effect takes place on many aircraft but I believe that the rocking of the Mi-35 seen in this video is due to aerodynamic forces (caused by the pilot rapidly adjusting pitch while flying at high speed in order to aim). Anyway, I thought I would voice the second possibility here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is quite definitely incorrect. The AH-64 will own close up (aiming is much, MUCH easier, and having to point the nose is a chore) and at medium ranges it'll do just fine too; the Apache's gun IS for spraying, but it has nothing to do with praying - this 'spray' is desireable since it will 'snag' more body parts when it comes to its intended target.

And don't think a single round of that won't do a number on a Ka-50 ;) Lastly, the AH-64 can perform a lot of lateral motion with respect to the gun while firing quite accurately. The Ka-50 can do some of that too, but it is far more limited.

Do -not- underestimate the turret. It's there because it works ... and the fact that the weapon was turreted on the Mi-28 should tell you something, too.

 

Ka-50 would own the AH-64 in gunzo at medium to long range, and in close range it may be 50/50 between the two due to the manueverability of the Ka-50.

The gun on the Apache is just for spray and pray, just watch some of the videos on youtube...

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...and the fact that the weapon was turreted on the Mi-28 should tell you something, too.
It just says Mil designers were too busy making the Apacheski, while Kamov took a much more innovative and smart approach. :)

 

Having a limited range of motion on the cannon isn't a significant problem - remember the Mi-24P gun is completely fixed and is nevertheless very popular among pilots, much more so than the turreted gun of the Mi-24V. Probably has something to do with the HE effect of that big 30mm round. :) For an attack chopper, gun power and accuracy is what matters most and in this regard, the Ka-50 wins hands down.

- EB

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Nothing is easy. Everything takes much longer.

The Parable of Jane's A-10

Forum Rules

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...