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AGM-84 (Harpoon) Damage Issue


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22 minutes ago, prichardgs said:

Ok so last night I hit a Russian Moscow Cruiser with 2X Harm, then landed rearmed, hit it with 4X Harpoons, landed rearmed and hit it with 8X 154-C JSOWs in delay and instant- My wing man also threw a lot of ordnance against it-very little effect but I watched all the hits (Except the HARM and Harpoon) through FLIR and they looked pretty devastating-this can't be functioning correctly.

 

No it isn't, and in this case it's a result of multiple factors.

 

For Harpoons and JSOWS it's a damage modelling/warhead modelling issue (though more damage model than anything else). Ships don't have much fidelity to their damage model, some do have multiple zones, but most of those is eye-candy only. There are no internal subsystem damage or zones present, and how ships sink is very crude. I could go on about this for ages.

 

HARM is less damage model issue (ships that have FCRs and a damage model with multiple zones usually have these RADARs attached to one, allowing you to damage them individually and take them out) but more a problem of RADAR fidelity, which in turn affects the HARM's guidance - in that it doesn't actually guide on emitters themselves, instead it guides on the centre of the unit that has the whatever RADAR the HARM is targeting attached; this isn't so much an issue for ground units, but it is absolutely a problem for ships. What we need to do here is actually simulate the actual RADAR beam, attach it to an antenna, and have the HARM guide on that. 

 

I did a post on the HARM problem with ships here, using the Tarantul III Mod. (Molniya) as an example.


Edited by Northstar98
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No it isn't, and in this case it's a result of multiple factors.
 
For Harpoons and JSOWS it's a damage modelling/warhead modelling issue (though more damage model than anything else). Ships don't have much fidelity to their damage model, some do have multiple zones, but most of those is eye-candy only. There are no internal subsystem damage or zones present, and how ships sink is very crude. I could go on about this for ages.
 
HARM is less damage model issue (ships that have FCRs and a damage model with multiple zones usually have these RADARs attached to one, allowing you to damage that subsystem individually) but more a problem of RADAR fidelity, which in turn affects the HARM's guidance - in that it doesn't actually guide on emitters themselves, instead it guides on the centre of the unit, that has the RADAR its targeting, this isn't so much an issue for ground units, but it is absolutely a problem for ships. What we need to do here is actually simulate the actual RADAR beam, and attach it to an antenna, and have the HARM guide on that. 
 
I did a post on the HARM problem with ships here, using the Tarantul III Mod. (Molniya) as an example.

Spot on- I noticed my HARM hits where all center of gravity watching them fly in with F2. I hope they fix this.


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5 minutes ago, prichardgs said:

Spot on- I noticed my HARM hits where all center of gravity watching them fly in with F2. I hope they fix this.

 

Same, the issue though is it seems like a lot of work (it would necessitate a major overhaul of basically every RADAR in DCS, at least those that aren't aircraft). I'm also worried it would be taxing on our already taxed hardware, in turn probably requiring more work to be put in for multi-core or something.


Edited by Northstar98
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Modules I own: F-14A/B, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, F-16CM, AJS-37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), UH-1H, Mi-8MTV2, P-47D, P-51D, FC3, MiG-15bis, Yak-52, CA, C-101, Hawk

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10 hours ago, prichardgs said:

Ok so last night I hit a Russian Moscow Cruiser with 2X Harm, then landed rearmed, hit it with 4X Harpoons, landed rearmed and hit it with 8X 154-C JSOWs in delay and instant- My wing man also threw a lot of ordnance against it-very little effect but I watched all the hits (Except the HARM and Harpoon) through FLIR and they looked pretty devastating-this can't be functioning correctly.

The only thing i've actually seen do a lot of damage to that thing (including 2000lb BLU's GBU-24 and GBU-31) is the Walleye II. 2000lb glide bomb only available on the outer wing stations. 

The ship damage model is so f'ed and the lack of official response on this thread is ridiculous. 

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Yeah a bit of a pointless weapon currently, anti-ship tasks just aren't fun in DCS currently with the lack of proper ship damage models and lack of effectiveness for harpoons.

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20 minutes ago, Aarnoman said:

Yeah a bit of a pointless weapon currently, anti-ship tasks just aren't fun in DCS currently with the lack of proper ship damage models and lack of effectiveness for harpoons.

Rb-15F Disagrees. Amazing missile, capable of striking even fleet carriers, and killing them in a few hits
Harpoon is pretty shit tho, it's essentially useless right now, even if it hits

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2 minutes ago, BonerCat said:

Rb-15F Disagrees. Amazing missile, capable of striking even fleet carriers, and killing them in a few hits
Harpoon is pretty shit tho, it's essentially useless right now, even if it hits

That's because the Rb-15F has an artificially fudged damage output to achieve this; in real life it has a smaller warhead than the harpoon. You can confirm this yourself by comparing the game lua files for both missiles.


Edited by Aarnoman
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That's because the Rb-15F has an artificially fudged damage output to achieve this; in real life it has a smaller warhead than the harpoon. You can confirm this yourself by comparing the game lua files for both missiles.
Though only 5 % smaller in terms of weight, per Wikipedia, so basically the same.

Anyway, it's the signature mission mission of the attack Viggen so I understand why they did it that way. The harpoon should have a similar stop gap solution, imo.

Rb04 and Rb15 aside, the rest of the Viggen weapons are useless against ships in DCS.
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1 hour ago, Aarnoman said:

That's because the Rb-15F has an artificially fudged damage output to achieve this; in real life it has a smaller warhead than the harpoon. You can confirm this yourself by comparing the game lua files for both missiles.

 

If everything is buffed, nothing is(?)
While i agree that on paper the ship damage model and Rb-15 damage are way overperforming (which leads to proper values on the harpoon dealing negligible damage) , when an Rb-15 hits a ship, it delivers the intended effect. It kills the ship.

I don't want to start a huge argument/shitshow here, so i m gonna call it good here. Just wanted to counter the "Anti-ship isnt fun in DCS" claim. It's not on the Hornet, and i agree with that, but Viggen has it pretty good

 

1 hour ago, Katj said:

Though only 5 % smaller in terms of weight, per Wikipedia, so basically the same.

Anyway, it's the signature mission mission of the attack Viggen so I understand why they did it that way. The harpoon should have a similar stop gap solution, imo.

Rb04 and Rb15 aside, the rest of the Viggen weapons are useless against ships in DCS.

 
You could argue the Mav is usable against small boats, but other than that, yeah, it only really has the 2 anti ship missile types

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So i guess in response to these issues, which, imo were resolved when they stated ship damage modelling will be updated, ED has just decided to prevent these discussions, by encoding the Weapons lua files? Still no official response to this thread which is sad.

 

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Harpoon received a damage buff in 2.7. But nothing was really changed in terms of the ships themselves and the aimpoint for the harpoon, it always hits center of the object. I would have to double check to see if any other ship HP values changed, just know of the Molinya. image.png

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So now that weapons attributes are lua locked, thereby preventing community squadrons to correct DCS weapon issues, I guess we have no other choice than pleading our cases as lowly customers.

 

Here is one harpoon impact on a rather large ship. I really hope this can be resolved because ASuW in DCS by default does not seem realistic or fun.

 

 

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On 4/24/2021 at 6:58 AM, Grimes said:

Harpoon received a damage buff in 2.7. But nothing was really changed in terms of the ships themselves and the aimpoint for the harpoon, it always hits center of the object. I would have to double check to see if any other ship HP values changed, just know of the Molinya. 

Nice to see it buffed somewhat, could be that they're testing the Molniya for now. 

 

9 hours ago, evilnate said:

So now that weapons attributes are lua locked, thereby preventing community squadrons to correct DCS weapon issues, I guess we have no other choice than pleading our cases as lowly customers.

 

Here is one harpoon impact on a rather large ship. I really hope this can be resolved because ASuW in DCS by default does not seem realistic or fun.

 

 

Our definition of a large ship is different, though it looks like, from Grimes' post, it is now tuned to the Harpoon being able to destroy a Molniya, which could be expected to suffer from just one Harpoon sized warhead.

 

 

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