Poll - Active radar missiles for Su-27

[Skywall23]

I've voted against

Better implement 2 target attack the same time in MiG-29S, ...

 

I second that.

 

I third that.

[Oceandar]

Just a little note.....

 

The Su-27SK is the same as the Su-27S - the added "K" in the suffix only denotes that it is for export - hence the reason why the Su-27 version operated by e.g. by China is designated "Su-27SK" :) .

 

Both the Su-27S and Su-27SK have the "baseline" N001 radar....no R-77 support.

Yes, you`re right. I have emailed one of our Su-27SK pilots and he said Su-27SK cannot carry R-77, I was confused with Su-30MKK :oops:

 

Sorry for the nitpicking 8)

No need for sorry JJ, I`m glad you`d correct me, thanks alot :wink: :)

[Avimimus]

I see a problem coming.

In the sim the Su-27 family is modeled as it currently stands without AR missiles. Yet, the Ka-50 which will probably never see series production will be modeled as a major combat helicopter.

 

Are not the Lomac campaigns set in alternate histories? In such a history would the Ka-50 see production and/or the Su-27/33 see upgrade?

 

Is it realistic? Which is less a Su-27 with the R-77 or the Ka-50?

Or is the solution the modeling of the Su-35?

[Guest DeathAngelBR]

To model the Su-35 ED would also have to upgrade the F-15C. As the Su-35 can carry anti-radar and anti-ship missiles, as well as guided bombs, you'll need an F-18C or perhaps the F-18E. That's what, 3~4 years work? No, thank you very much.

 

As for your Ka-50 comment, it's already in production. A few of them have been to Chechenia.

[Dammerung]

When I use the AIM-120 and AIM-7 in the F-15, I time my launches to the second, in the Flanker I have to Guesstimate... However, if you need ARH Missiles to counter the AMRAAM, you need more practice. Russians have gigantic long sticks, US has ARH Missile... balanced already. Only difficulty vs a normal missile is you have to fry your target earlier and then beam so it can't see you on it's own.. ARH Missiles also show up on the RWR, and if you know where it's coming from you can dodge it, the RWR does the timing for you.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the most important NATO Aircraft that we do not have is the F-16C. F/A-18 may be pretty, but A) More Nations fly the F-16, B) It is superior in many aspects to the F/A-18, and C) I don't know how difficult it is, but catapults would have to be modeled. Rather than New Pretty aircraft, I'd rather have what we have now refined anyway, more F-15C Avionics, AFM on more aircraft, and better BVR AI.

[Mayh3M]

Avimimus

Ka-50 is series producting by Vladivostok plant "Red Star". THere are already about 20-30 Ka-50 in arms (maybe even more). Production stoped, due to economic troubles and a question about Mi-28N lot...

[Alfa]

I see a problem coming.

In the sim the Su-27 family is modeled as it currently stands without AR missiles. Yet, the Ka-50 which will probably never see series production will be modeled as a major combat helicopter.

 

Are not the Lomac campaigns set in alternate histories? In such a history would the Ka-50 see production and/or the Su-27/33 see upgrade?

 

Is it realistic? Which is less a Su-27 with the R-77 or the Ka-50?

Or is the solution the modeling of the Su-35?

 

That is actually an interesting point :)

 

My personal opinion on this, is that I can live with a platform that exists only in a few units being modelled for the sim.....as long as it is modelled accurately! :) .

 

Some of the most capable and interesting Russian aircraft and helicopters designs only exist in single digit numbers and arent currently in service - not because they arent fully developed, but simply because the collapse of the Soviet Union meant that there were no funds available to put them into full scale production/service.

 

Taking your example, I would have no problem with the Su-35 being included in the sim if it is possible to acquire all the information on its systems required for modelling them...and to find the necessary funds to develop them.

 

This would be a case of simulating a rare but interesting aircraft.

 

I would However, have a big problem with an Su-35 representation that would give us an accurate Su-35 external model, but the current Su-27 cockpit and systems functionality to go with it.....just "slinging" some Kh-29s, Kh-31s and R-77s on it without any consideration as to how exactly it is supposed to deploy them.

 

That would have nothing to do with simulation.

 

There is no alternate universe in Lock-on - the KA-50 exists in real life, its systems are documented and can be modelled accurately.

 

There exists no Su-33 version with R-77 support - not even in prototype form. So how can it be simulated?. An Su-27 version(Su-27SM) with R-77 support exists(a single prototype), but this has a very different cockpit setup + radar functionality and modelling it would be a case of introducing a new aircraft type to the sim......not just putting R-77s on the current one :) .

 

Just my 2 cents worth :)

[Mimes]

Backup Alfa on this one...

[Avimimus]

20-30! I had no idea!

I had heard that two were being used in chechnya with a Ka-27 acting as spotter. I have heard that neither it or the Ka-52 will see use with the army but the the -52 will be used by special forces.

 

Anyway, I generally agree with what Alfa and many others have said.

I like the Ka-50, a single seat, twin rotor attack helicopter is something unique.

 

*unsupported speculation here*:

I have been wondering if one of the reasons for the support for the Mi-28N is because it will be more easily equiped with radar direct missiles.

Since the 9M120 is radio command quided SACLOS. This has advantages in that it is cheap, all weather and all that it needs is range and angle of the target.

 

Most CIS developers, seem to believe that jamming does not seem to pose a threat to such systems. It is even used with confidence in the newer sam's such as the S-300 and the Tunguska.

 

What is there to prevent such systems being directed against ground targets using radar? Could not such a system engage multiple targets, with multiple missiles simultaneously airborne in a staggered attack?

[Cat]

I had to vote "no" too.

 

If Eagle models an Su-27SM or SMK, then the R-77 would be required, I think. But for the pre-1989 Su-27S, which is what we have now (since in 1.1 it can carry unguided ordnance, unlike the Su-27P) it's wrong. I don't even add them in with LOPE, although I could.

 

It is VERY difficult to engage a Western AMRAAM equipped fighter with the R-27RE. I tend to go mutual-assured-destruction. I get first shot, but the AIM-120 he launches shortly before his death kills me after I kill him.

 

I have to work on my f-pole technique. The secret is to kill him BEFORE the AMRAAM goes active.

 

Miao, Cat

[emenance]

if the russians have such a missile who am i as a civilian to suggest that any military have a rule not to equip any of thier planes with a restricted payload. THAT SEEMS UNREALISTIC TO ME.

 

If the military has a missile that will fit on a plane I would assume it might be on that plane.

 

So yes i voted yes

[Dammerung]

You misunderstand. The Su-27 that we have does not have the capability to fire that missile. the N001 Radar cannot take the R-77...

[emenance]

then this discussion seems to be a waste of time in a realistic flight sim i would think. :roll:

[Avimimus]

then this discussion seems to be a waste of time in a realistic flight sim i would think. :roll:

 

*cough* Ahem... What about the R-77T? ;)

[kyjko]

I had to vote "no" too.

 

It is VERY difficult to engage a Western AMRAAM equipped fighter with the R-27RE. I tend to go mutual-assured-destruction. I get first shot, but the AIM-120 he launches shortly before his death kills me after I kill him.

 

I have to work on my f-pole technique. The secret is to kill him BEFORE the AMRAAM goes active.

 

Miao, Cat

 

I'm by no means a know it all expert, but you can beat the F-15 easily with the R27RE, you just need a huge F-Pole advantage. The AI F-15 on expert can be beaten pretty easy. Human online opponents are much more difficult. I've seen a lot of people online using the "barrel roll" missile evasion technique. I've heard this is a cheat\bug in the network code that the missiles can't track a plane barrel rolling. But I've also read that this is a real life technique. Who knows??? Usually, if I catch them barrel rolling my missiles I just switch to EOS and when they stop barrel rolling I get them with a TE or R-73. At least IMHO I think the SU27/33 is the toughest plane to fly online, especially if your not on voice comms flying with a squad. You really need to use teamwork with the 27/33. I usually try to pick on enemy planes that are busy attacking others. If it's 1 v 1 and I don't have a huge F-pole advantage I'll run away. I enjoy flying all the planes though online. I just go to the team with the least amount of players and pick a bird to fly. The 27/33 is really challenging plane to fly online though. I probably have the best K/D ratio in the 27 compared to the other planes I choose simply because I'm more cautious flying with it due to the lack of active missiles. I wish I could find a decent 27 squad to join so I could refine my tactics and learn how to better use it. Your right though, it's a tough bird to fight against the F-15 with.

[BuzzU]

Do you think anybody flying the F-15 voted yes?

[GGTharos]

I know that many people flying the Su-27 voted no.

[Skywall23]

Like me. :mrgreen:

[One]

Hi guys.

It was me who created this unofficial polling in Russian part of the forum.

I am not going to agitate you but just want to explain you my position.

First of all I also appreciate «Lock on» for realism and don’t want it becomes more casual.

But may be you know that only а light modification of radar is needed to make SU 27 use R 77 in real life. And the only reason for the lack of this missiles on real Russian SU 27`s is the problem of money. So I didn’t want designers just to put R77 missiles on the current version of SU 27, which doesn’t support them, but I wanted them to simulate that SU 27 version with modified radar, which can actually use R 77 rockets. Not a SU 35 or a SU 37, which cant be simulated correctly now.

And the main reason for the addition such modified SU 27 in «Lock on» is the serious misbalance between F15 with active rockets and SU with passive ones, which makes Russians use Mig 29 instead of SU 27 in online war.

 

PS. Sorry for my English. It is much easier for me to read than to reply :)

[BuzzU]

Did the F-15 have that advantage in the era of the game?

[GGTharos]

Yep, I read your thread in the Russian forum. The misbalance one-on-one simply isn't there. The Sue can fire from fartehr out and if the Eagle driver isn't careful, it can easily put him on the defensive. The R-27ET is fairly effective if used correctly as well.

 

The Su-27 with 'slight upgrade' yu want to use doesn't exist. Am I right? Because the upgrade actually comes with upgrades to the rest of the aircraft, so ED isn't going to simulate it.

 

But I'll tell you what ... make the Russian datalink realistic (updates every 20 seconds, only one target ASSIGNED and VISIBLE to each plane from dlink) and give us the Link-16 and the AMRAAM's digital datalink selection number so we can have an aircraft (even AWACS) different from the launching aircaft guiding missiles - this is after all just a minor upgrade to the F-15's radar package. Then, you can carry all the R-77's in the world on your Su-27 ;)

 

You're also wrong about people's choice of aircraft. I often see many Su-27's or Su-33's on the servers I play on.

 

And now, with the new missile logics, the Russian missiles can reach -even farther- so the Su-27's range advantage becomes a bit greater. This combined with the new radar modes should make you fairly happy expecially since your radar can now auto-lock the target who just came out of the notch after notching you, and th emissile will then continue to track.

 

I strongly disagree with your assessment that there is an imbalance - I've seen plenty of Sues blow up F-15's online (from both sides ... I've been on the receiving and the giving end of this)

 

As for your English, don't worry, you are getting yoru message across across pretty clearly. :D

[Skywall23]

But I'll tell you what ... make the Russian datalink realistic (updates every 20 seconds, only one target ASSIGNED and VISIBLE to each plane from dlink) and give us the Link-16 and the AMRAAM's digital datalink selection number so we can have an aircraft (even AWACS) different from the launching aircaft guiding missiles - this is after all just a minor upgrade to the F-15's radar package. Then, you can carry all the R-77's in the world on your Su-27

 

If Eagle Dynamics models datalinks on the F-15 we (Su-27 pilots) are doomed! :shock:

[Skywall23]

JJ - Alfa wrote:

 

The Su-27SM is a Russian upgrade of the Su-27S and includes an upgraded radar called "N001VE", which incorporates air-to-ground modes and support for active radar guided missiles....including the R-77

 

Is this the modified Su-27? Yeah, and for it looks like if we wanted ED to model the SM version, ED would have to model air-to-ground modes on the Su-27. :shock:

[GGTharos]

I believe in the Russian thread it was stated by Chizh, that Su-27SM is both a prototype and classified in terms of avionics so they can't model it simply because they don't have enough info on it.

[Skywall23]

Thats afirmative GG. In fact I remember that JJ Alfa also said that the SM version of the Flanker was only a prototype.