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I have been flying the F-16 in multiplayer servers and seem to have an issue with the Aim-120's range. If I fire on a bandit more then 10nm the missle will slow down within 5nm and go stupid.

If I fire with in 10nm the missile will slow down in 4-5nm and I might get a hit. This is in STT lock. AI aircraft with the same 120s seem to be able to launch and kill with it from 20nm. I have better range with Aim-9Xs. Is this normal?

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Pretty sure the DLZs you have in the Viper are just placeholders. Not sure about the Hornet, but to be honest I expect the same. DLZs in DCS overall have been borderline worthless since the dawn of ti

I have been flying the F-16 in multiplayer servers and seem to have an issue with the Aim-120's range. If I fire on a bandit more then 10nm the missle will slow down within 5nm and go stupid.

If I fire with in 10nm the missile will slow down in 4-5nm and I might get a hit. This is in STT lock. AI aircraft with the same 120s seem to be able to launch and kill with it from 20nm. I have better range with Aim-9Xs. Is this normal?

Could you provide more details.

What are your speed and altitude?

What are speed and altitude of target?

 

We'll check it.

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I have been flying the F-16 in multiplayer servers and seem to have an issue with the Aim-120's range. If I fire on a bandit more then 10nm the missle will slow down within 5nm and go stupid.

If I fire with in 10nm the missile will slow down in 4-5nm and I might get a hit. This is in STT lock. AI aircraft with the same 120s seem to be able to launch and kill with it from 20nm. I have better range with Aim-9Xs. Is this normal?

 

The Aim120 in DCS flies very closely to what a real missile would do (with current unclassified information). A missile categorized in market brochures as a 40-60 mn missile could very well be actually a 10-15mn missile at very low altitudes against a high speed maneuvering target. This is the first hit of truth newcomers find when they get to DCS and are deceived by marketing brochures that you see in self-claimed specialized internet sources.

 

To give you an examples, this very same missile you are having trouble getting hits with further than 10 mn, will score a perfect hit against an awacs or bomber at over 25-30 MN given the right conditions.

 

The only thing that puzzles me from you topic is regarding the aim9x range. For sure you won't be getting >10mn kills with that missiles, or you should not except for very very rare launching parameters (basically an stupid high speed non maneuvering target coming directly at you at angels 20 or so)

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Example 1 F-15C FL060 M1.08 fires at 12nm Score a kill on a manuvering F-16

Example 2 AI F-16 FL190 M1.08 fires at 14nm scores a kill on a manuvering F-16

Example 3 F-16 FL120 M.80 fires at 11nm non manuvering SU-27 Missile accelerates to 4nm to M3.04 which then decelerates to M1.8 in less than 2nm goes stupid at 7nm and then floats to the earth at 9mn

Example 4 F-16 FL130 M.99 fires at 6nm inorder to score a kill on Su-24

 

Sorry I dont buy that its normal to be actually 10-15. The R-27 has a "brochure" range of 120km and is effective at that range in DCS, the Aim-120C "brochure" range is 105km and is not effective at that range in DCS.

 

I have been shot down by Aim-9Ms at 6-8NM and Aim-9Xs at 5-9NM. This means the 120 is not an effective weapon by any means. The Aim-7 is better then the Aim-120 which the F-16 can carry but never did.

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This is the first hit of truth newcomers find when they get to DCS and are deceived by marketing brochures that you see in self-claimed specialized internet sources.

 

I don't see that as a problem, as IMHO the problem is the lack of information that the mentioned range is in specific scenario and information how does the performance change based different values.

 

It is completely true that new people reads the information and then they are like "This missile should be able to hit target at 130 km range" without realizing that is the scenario like:

 

Altitude 12 000 meters

Launch speed Mach 1.2

Target non-maneuvering Mach 1.1 coming directly toward

 

And so on it quickly would come easy to understand that traveled distance of the missile when it actually would hit the target would be closer to 40-50 km range. So the marketed 130 km range really turns to be only a 40-50 km real range (ground range) at optimal case.

 

And why would this matter? As fighter, one needs to defend the ground operations so the enemy doesn't get to strike there. So capability to engage target only 40-50 km from own ground forces position is not much at all, especially when talking about seconds time to release a A-G ordinance and bug off.

 

So if we would have such missiles that we could actually get them fly 130-250 km range launched from typical fighters and against typical fighters in common scenarios, one could very easily dominate whole border with just couple fighters.

 

So doesn't it easily come obvious that people get the illusion that fighter with TWS capable radar and some 120 km range missiles would be just there spamming 8 missiles on 8 targets and get all downed, while tracking 14 targets same time?

 

And yet all the time we have very low capability actually hit targets in modern era even today. Lots of classified information, lots of completely lacking information and even more just media hype based praising own country etc.

 

This is as well something I would like to see fixed in the DCS encyclopedia that each missile is specified as it is working in the DCS. Like give it a four altitude values: 1500m, 3000m, 6000m and 10 000m for launch parameters at 900 km/h and 1300 km/h at targets HOT and COLD.

 

A nice ED provided graphical table would help a lot of new comers by thinking that what they should be seeing in their weapons payloads.

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Example 1 F-15C FL060 M1.08 fires at 12nm Score a kill on a manuvering F-16

Example 2 AI F-16 FL190 M1.08 fires at 14nm scores a kill on a manuvering F-16

Example 3 F-16 FL120 M.80 fires at 11nm non manuvering SU-27 Missile accelerates to 4nm to M3.04 which then decelerates to M1.8 in less than 2nm goes stupid at 7nm and then floats to the earth at 9mn

Example 4 F-16 FL130 M.99 fires at 6nm inorder to score a kill on Su-24

 

Sorry I dont buy that its normal to be actually 10-15. The R-27 has a "brochure" range of 120km and is effective at that range in DCS, the Aim-120C "brochure" range is 105km and is not effective at that range in DCS.

 

I have been shot down by Aim-9Ms at 6-8NM and Aim-9Xs at 5-9NM. This means the 120 is not an effective weapon by any means. The Aim-7 is better then the Aim-120 which the F-16 can carry but never did.

 

 

 

R-27 will never reach 120 km in today’s DCS. Every single brochure range is from high altitude and high speed. There’s a reason the ground launched version of the AMRAAM , NASAM, is only good for 15-25km

 

The AI never evades as aggressively as a human, a split s is an amazingly effective way to kinetically defeat even an AMRAAM fired even at 10nm. In addition the AI always fires near max range. You can get a max range kill on a human they just have to make a lot of mistakes.

 

The missile re work is going on still, but if you see something you’re sure is wrong you’re best bet is to upload a track


Edited by AeriaGloria
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Not true.

If you take Su-27 at 50 000 feet and 2M against MiG-25 at 2,5M in head on position you can reach 120-130 km range for R-27ER.

 

Okay you got me there, I stand corrected:) As long as it’s going nearly straight!

 

Thanks, think I’m going to take out the Sukhoi for the first time in a while and see if can reach it:D :pilotfly:

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Okay you got me there, I stand corrected:) As long as it’s going nearly straight!

 

Thanks, think I’m going to take out the Sukhoi for the first time in a while and see if can reach it:D :pilotfly:

All the stated max ranges for missiles are given for ideal conditions, so that's normal. Try the AMRAAM at 45,000 ft, Mach 1.5 against a drone (no reaction) flying towards you at the same speed and altitude and you'll get some crazy ranges.

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The one thing i'm curious about is why both the 120B and 120C lost somewhere on the order of 300ish kts to their top speeds? Seems a bit to have such a drastic change especially when the drag was somewhat reduced overal. And the thrust values that were being used where probably about as nailed down as public information would allow.

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The one thing i'm curious about is why both the 120B and 120C lost somewhere on the order of 300ish kts to their top speeds? Seems a bit to have such a drastic change especially when the drag was somewhat reduced overal. And the thrust values that were being used where probably about as nailed down as public information would allow.

My understanding is that previously ED only had a sort of fixed drag curve that could be shifted up/down in terms of CD, but the curve was not accurate at high Mach.

 

 

The new curve gives them more control, so missile drag at high M increased according to CFD results, but at mid and low M the CD is down. Lift increased massively, which is what really gives the AIM-120 the improved range with the latest flight model. It's harder to get them to loft now, but when they do they lose a lot less speed pulling out of the loft because they don't need as extreme an AoA to maneuver. If the loft is updated to let the missile cruise at altitude and avoid going into the dive too early and too eagerly I expect the AIM-120 to get another significant range boost.

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Fire in TWS, Mach 1+ and from 25.000+ feet then you'll get 20nm shots easily. Especially against AI, which just flies into TWS launches. The 120 is currently one of the best misiles we have in game so it is entirely on you to employ it correctly.

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Ok, so the argument is it’s “brochure” range and speed even though it’s classified it’s smaller (by a lot) then the “brochure data”. The 120 per the brochure says the 120s motor can reach Mach 4 and based on what you are saying the speed of the aircraft determines range since in my example you see that a 120 was fired at 6000 feet not kilometers at Mach 1 and killed a maneuvering F16 at roughly the same altitude at distance of 12nm so in that example height is no factor. The 120 should have reached Mach 4 or higher but only reached Mach 3. The next one was fired at 19000 feet not kilometer at just above Mach 1 scoring a kill on a maneuvering F-16 that was at 6000 feet at a range of 14nm. The last 2 examples where with in parameters but could only score 1 kill and targets were not maneuvering. The Su-27 had turned 180 ran away at Mach .90 the Su-24 was side aspect. One I did not share was a Mig-21 rear aspect shot at 10nm 13000 feet Mach .90 and no kill. The Mig did not maneuver just lit his afterburner 180ed to Mach 1 and the missile never came close. I understand they are working on it and and I thank them. As for the “brochure” is higher....Sorry still don’t buy it. The manual says the F-16 at 40,000 feet clean can do Mach 2.......anyone getting above Mach 1.5? Just food for thought.


Edited by briosky2
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Ok, so the argument is it’s “brochure” range and speed even though it’s classified it’s smaller (by a lot) then the “brochure data”. The 120 per the brochure says the 120s motor can reach Mach 4 and based on what you are saying the speed of the aircraft determines range since in my example you see that a 120 was fired at 6000 feet not kilometers at Mach 1 and killed a maneuvering F16 at roughly the same altitude at distance of 12nm so in that example height is no factor. The 120 should have reached Mach 4 or higher but only reached Mach 3.

The AMRAAM is only going to reach max speed at high altitude. 6000 ft is anything but high, so not reaching Mach 4 is hardly a surprise.

 

 

 

 

The manual says the F-16 at 40,000 feet clean can do Mach 2.......anyone getting above Mach 1.5? Just food for thought.

I have, and just to see I launched a missile under those conditions as well:

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The Aim120 in DCS flies very closely to what a real missile would do (with current unclassified information). A missile categorized in market brochures as a 40-60 mn missile could very well be actually a 10-15mn missile at very low altitudes against a high speed maneuvering target. This is the first hit of truth newcomers find when they get to DCS and are deceived by marketing brochures that you see in self-claimed specialized internet sources.

 

To give you an examples, this very same missile you are having trouble getting hits with further than 10 mn, will score a perfect hit against an awacs or bomber at over 25-30 MN given the right conditions.

 

The only thing that puzzles me from you topic is regarding the aim9x range. For sure you won't be getting >10mn kills with that missiles, or you should not except for very very rare launching parameters (basically an stupid high speed non maneuvering target coming directly at you at angels 20 or so)

 

Yup. Mostly this. The "brochure range" is under optimal conditions (as fast and as high as possible launch platform) against an incoming high speed, non maneuvering target. Those ranges are laughably unrealistic for most kinetically realistic situations.

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Theoretically possible, yes, as it's a fox 3 with an active seeker.

 

I don't know how AMRAAM suddenly to go for chaff at least 80 degrees offset.

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Ok, so the argument is it’s “brochure” range and speed even though it’s classified it’s smaller (by a lot) then the “brochure data”. The 120 per the brochure says the 120s motor can reach Mach 4 and based on what you are saying the speed of the aircraft determines range since in my example you see that a 120 was fired at 6000 feet not kilometers at Mach 1 and killed a maneuvering F16 at roughly the same altitude at distance of 12nm so in that example height is no factor. The 120 should have reached Mach 4 or higher but only reached Mach 3. The next one was fired at 19000 feet not kilometer at just above Mach 1 scoring a kill on a maneuvering F-16 that was at 6000 feet at a range of 14nm. The last 2 examples where with in parameters but could only score 1 kill and targets were not maneuvering. The Su-27 had turned 180 ran away at Mach .90 the Su-24 was side aspect. One I did not share was a Mig-21 rear aspect shot at 10nm 13000 feet Mach .90 and no kill. The Mig did not maneuver just lit his afterburner 180ed to Mach 1 and the missile never came close. I understand they are working on it and and I thank them. As for the “brochure” is higher....Sorry still don’t buy it. The manual says the F-16 at 40,000 feet clean can do Mach 2.......anyone getting above Mach 1.5? Just food for thought.

 

LOL, welcome to DCS, and sorry that "you don't buy it", but thats kinematic reality, the math is not hard to do. The mig outrunning a missile, totally doable and a "real world" tactic. That missile accelerates rapidly, then starts slowing down (rapidly), even worse if it has to maneuver. I almost never shoot in a tail chase scenario unless I am are REALLY close. That motor fires for a few seconds, so the missile has good speed for X seconds to close that range gap. If it does not do this it will miss. This is also why the most modern BVR missiles (and many SAMS) are using ramjet propulsion, longer burn times.

 

The classic example is throwing a baseball at car coming at you (slowly), versus one driving away (slowly).

 

If you want to start looking at this in detail, get a copy of tacview.


Edited by Harlikwin

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I don't know how AMRAAM suddenly to go for chaff at least 80 degrees offset.

 

The problem is that the radar sees the chaff, but its autopilot should reject the chaff if new target suddenly doesn't match the previous track history.

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