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Any BVR tactics against AI Fighters ?


FalconPlot16
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What to do against AI fighters like Su and Mig 29's in BVR? They got much better range than mine when they fire at me i have to go defensive before i shoot. Couple of seconds later.. Boom we are dogfighting. Of course Hornet gets instantly killed everytime when she got shot before having time to eject. :helpsmilie:

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What's the setup? I believe this could go in so many ways. And truthfully, very few of the scenarios in my mind are with the Hornet just getting blown away. I last night was the first time experimenting with the g override in the 18. I imagine it could be useful as a last ditch dogfighting option.

 

Otherwise, BVR and dogfighting are still the same as it's always been. Put an incoming missile at your 3or 9, accelerate and use countermeasures.

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Art Of The Kill:

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Right now with the AIM-120, you can launch at around 15 miles, crank, and pump (retreat) before 8 miles and be safe with a good chance of hitting with your missile. Honestly even at fairly close ranges you can split-S and retreat from the enemy missile and you will survive even from fairly close ranges. Notching and countermeasures work probably too well in DCS vs modern missiles.

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Setup? I've got 120C's unfortunately range is bad. I wish we can carry 120D's i have no problems about avoiding SARH's but IR's are really biggest threat for me.

 

120s should be good enough if you're taking hits from IR missiles. But, if you are close enough to be facing an IR missile from your opponent, feel free to drop a flare every second or 2 as you close in, and as you see your opponent off to the side or closing in behind you. Are you able to use your own IR missiles?

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Art Of The Kill:

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120s should be good enough if you're taking hits from IR missiles. But, if you are close enough to be facing an IR missile from your opponent, feel free to drop a flare every second or 2 as you close in, and as you see your opponent off to the side or closing in behind you. Are you able to use your own IR missiles?

 

Yes but if i can see them of course i could kill them. 9X's are pretty nice.

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With AIM-120's you should be fine when it comes to first shot advantage. The ER can go a distance in a straight line, but it's still using the old flight model and is worse against a maneuvering target.

 

 

You're probably going to defensive too early and too aggressively. If the AI fires on you at 25 miles, you can keep pressing on. Shoot at around 20, then guide your missile while pulling off to the side to slow theirs. If you have to maneuver to the point where the enemy leaves the radar FoV, make a mental note of where they are so that you know what heading to turn back to. If your first shot doesn't kill, follow up with another at ~10 miles, that's within the no escape zone, but it can still fall for chaff.

 

 

The F-18 is also a little more challenging to fight in because it's not the fastest fighter. I like to say up high so I can trade altitude for speed.

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My approach (after reading up, watching lots of videos on the topic (recommend DCS Debrief, Growling Sidewinder and Spudknocker on this)). I then have a mission similar to the Viper instant action Intercept mission, just with a Hornet. instead;

 

1. Full burner - speed is life and the Hornet is not the fastest aircraft going around but you should comfortably be able to get to Mach 1.2-1.3 at a respectable altitude with an air to air load. Lose the tanks however - they should be empty anyway at this point.

 

2. Don’t fly directly at the target, fly somewhat offset. You want to start creating problems for them and their missile to solve. An offset shot lowers the closure rate and thus their effective range.

 

3. As soon as they fire (or you get close enough that they will have fired an ET which gives no RWR indication) crank. Try not to bleed your speed too much. At this point you are going to be around 20nm and it is decision time. If;

 

A - you are outmatched - shoot within RMAX (in TWS) as you turn in and continue the turn to place the bandit at near the gimbal limits, then once the missile goes pitbull continue the turn and escape. Your opponent is going to either expend energy defeating your missile (facilitating your escape) or will eat a missile. Win win.

 

B - you want (or need) to press - don’t shoot but still turn keeping your speed up until just within gimbal limits changing orientation and chasing a bandit which is no longer head on aspect should bleed the missile or energy, then at around 15nm turn back in aiming to be nose hot just as you enter RNoE and fire, continue the turn and once the missile is pitbull turn away and extend. At this range your AMRAAM is almost guaranteed to kill and if it doesn’t your opponent will have expended a lot of energy leaving you in a good position to recommit and score the kill.

 

Doing this you should be virtually untouchable even in a multi target engagement. The other one to try is the 4 v 4 Mig-29 ACM mission which you can edit to update both sides loadouts. While with Sparrows it is a challenge, with AMRAAMS and TWS it is stupid easy applying these sorts of tactics

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1v1 BVR against AI MiG-29s and Su-27s is typically pretty easy.

 

Start your intercept in a single side offset, with the bandit between the quarter line and gimbal limit on your radar screen, depending on how fast you want to close. Approaching at an offset will reduce the range at which the enemy can fire by shifting his WEZ off his nose. If you are launched on being on an offset approach will cause the enemy missile to take a fairly large lead angle on you.

 

Close to within weapon range, I usually wait to within 18 to 15 miles. He may fire first, it doesn't matter, it'll be a low Pk shot. Once in range, perform a crank by reversing the offset: turn towards the bandit, pausing just long enough to launch your AMRAAM when you're nose-on, then continue the turn until the bandit is on the opposite radar gimbal limit. If you've been fired on, this turn will cause the enemy missile to need to reverse its lead angle, loosing a bunch of energy and extending the range to intercept. This single turn is usually enough to defeat an R-27ER launched from max range. Depending on closure rate, distance, and enemy actions, doing one more crank may be advisable, but don't do it within 10 miles or so.

 

Maintain a track on your target to provide missile guidance for as long as possible - ideally for the entire intercept. Once your AMRAAM goes pitpull you have the option to disengage and extend if you feel threatened. Do this by turning away from the bandit and going full burner with them directly behind you. Otherwise, continue to close from an offset and guide your missile.

 

Right before predicted missile impact, turn hard onto the bandit and place them right on your nose. If you lost track, reacquire them on radar as quickly as you can (Boresight or HACQ is usually best here). If your first AMRAAM misses you want to be able to launch a second missile as quickly as possible. If the bandit defeats your missile he'll be looking to engage you right away. You'll be pretty close now, probably 8 to 5 miles, at that range both the AMRAAM and R-27 are very lethal. Shoot him before he shoots you. Or, if your first shot hits, you'll be able to watch the fireball right in front of you and confirm the kill.

 

1v2 gets rather more complicated, though it's a bit easier now that the Hornet has TWS.

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My approach (after reading up, watching lots of videos on the topic

We've got pretty much the same advice :thumbup:

 

Two things I noticed just based on my experience - keeping in mind that I'm no expert, I just read things and play computer games.

 

1. Full burner - speed is life and the Hornet is not the fastest aircraft going around but you should comfortably be able to get to Mach 1.2-1.3

 

This is good advice for the first part of the engagement. You want that speed for your missile launch, as the speed on your jet gets imparted onto your missile at launch, allowing it to get even faster. After missile launch I typically take off the burners. Part of the technique here is to maximize the distance between your jet and the bandit at the time your missile impacts. Screaming in at mach 1 in full burner doesn't help this, and if you end up merging you do not want to be that fast. Plus you'll save fuel, which will give you more time to fight should you even up merging.

 

3. As soon as they fire (or you get close enough that they will have fired an ET which gives no RWR indication) crank.

 

You don't want to crank right at missile launch. Part of the reason this works is because the missile will fly out trying to intercept you along your flight path when it's launched. Let the missile do that for a bit, because the longer it heads in this direction, the less energy it'll have when you crank. Think of this a bit as a fake-out. Once the missile has committed a bunch of energy into intercepting you on your initial course, then you turn and force the missile to match a new course. Not only is the energy it spent to intercept your original course wasted, but if you've cranked right it'll make the missile fly further than it otherwise would have.

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Here is my little training scaenario I have put together (on the NTTR map as it is where I like to have my training scenarios).

 

Pits you in an F-18 against 2 modern Russian combatants.

 

The first is a co-altitude Mig-29S with a loadout of R-77 and R-73 missiles.

 

Once you splash that you will face off against a Mig-31 with a loadout of R-33 and R-40 missiles which is flying well above your starting altitude (and fast).

 

(Of course more realistically you (and they) will have wingmen, but this is just for practice).

 

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Ok guys now i can win 1 vs 1 fights easily. Going full burner firing at 15-20 miles with the TWS, as soon as missile goes active cranking and deploying chaffs, his crap R27 is being fooled easily. Haven't tried to cranking against R77.

 

Well done. Beating an R-77 is pretty similar. I suspect though you are wasting the chaff, you can beat the missile at that range kinematically without using decoys, save them for when shot at within RNoE (or against longer ranged missiles).

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The R-77 has worse kinematic performance at long range than the R-27 does, so defeating a max range shot isn't usually too hard. It's primary advantage is that it allows the launching aircraft greater latitude to turn after launch, making it more likely that the bandit will defeat your first missile shot. Like the AMRAAM, the R-77 can be very deadly within 10 miles and allows the bandit to launch and immediately turn and run. This makes engagements with R-77 equipped fighters in the close BVR / long WVR zone very dangerous - do everything you can to avoid this by staying at longer range or closing aggressively to the merge if you have AIM-9X.

 

With regards to using chaff: I'll generally drop a few bundles as I make my crank turn, but generally it should not be needed to defeat a long range shot unless you've bungled the intercept geometry.

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Check out this guys tutorial on BVR survival guide

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8ShS7fhTds&t=241s

 

Perfect, I was just going to link this too.

 

FYI guys, if you click on the URL in the browser bar, it sometimes links the video at the point you are in on the timeline of the video...but if you copy the link under the Share shortcut, you'll pass the entire video to your friends.

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Very helpfull thread this is :thumbup:

 

I kinda miss some more useful interactive training on BVR and AA combat in general, but maybe those are still in the pipe line. The current "shoot an aim-120 at a non evasive target" training is not representing actual BVR action.

 

Not my intention to hijack this thread, but is there a way to see when and if my AMRAAM goes pitbul? Or is it just a matter of distance? (and if so, what distance would we be talking about then?)

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Very helpfull thread this is :thumbup:

 

I kinda miss some more useful interactive training on BVR and AA combat in general, but maybe those are still in the pipe line. The current "shoot an aim-120 at a non evasive target" training is not representing actual BVR action.

 

Not my intention to hijack this thread, but is there a way to see when and if my AMRAAM goes pitbul? Or is it just a matter of distance? (and if so, what distance would we be talking about then?)

 

You can see it on the HUD (goes from ACT to TTG) and in the flyout cue in STT (which is going to be added to TWS soon).

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You can see it on the HUD (goes from ACT to TTG) and in the flyout cue in STT (which is going to be added to TWS soon).

 

Ah thanks :thumbup:

 

It's these kind of basic (but essential) things that I'd love to see explained in the interactive training missions.

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  • 1 year later...
On 2/6/2020 at 4:34 PM, Bunny Clark said:

Once your AMRAAM goes pitpull you have the option to disengage and extend if you feel threatened. Do this by turning away from the bandit and going full burner with them directly behind you. Otherwise, continue to close from an offset and guide your missile.

Unfortunately the 120s are currently broken, so this tactic won’t work. The missile will just go ballistic after you stop guiding it. I find any attempt at tactics like this to be suicide because by the time your BVR missile reaches the target an enemy wingman will have killed you with a short range IR shot. Also any of these radar guided AIM-7 or 120s only have about a 5-10% pk outside Rne. The enemy will be well within visual by the time you’re at Rne so why bother with BVR at all? The most dangerous enemy isn’t beyond visual, they’re in close to you with IR where you get no warning. 


Edited by SharpeXB

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2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Unfortunately the 120s are currently broken, so this tactic won’t work. The missile will just go ballistic after you stop guiding it. I find any attempt at tactics like this to be suicide because by the time your BVR missile reaches the target an enemy wingman will have killed you with a short range IR shot. Also any of these radar guided AIM-7 or 120s only have about a 5-10% pk outside Rne. The enemy will be well within visual by the time you’re at Rne so why bother with BVR at all? The most dangerous enemy isn’t beyond visual, they’re in close to you with IR where you get no warning. 

 

It is partially broken, but not as you described. And the statement made by Bunny Clark is valid, this tactic works. 

 

Currently, 120 only goes ballistic if you lose the lock before the missile goes pitbull. As long as you wait for the missile to go pitbull, you can turn away and drop the lock. The missile will track and attempt to hit the target. You don't need to maintain lock all the way through like an Aim-7. 

 

And sometimes dropping the lock just a few seconds before the pitbull can still work, the missile will attempt to find and track the target. 


Edited by SCPanda
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The problem is that lock is often dropped (AI perfect notching, overly-effective chaff) before the missile is Pitbull when engaging at any ranges beyond 20~23nm. 

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