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Coming together with MiTech


Neil Gardner
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I was really quite pleased to see that Razbam and Mitech are getting together. I have an intuition more than an assumption based on an awareness rooted in factual understanding - that these kinds of amalgamations in which resources are pooled and ideas shared, should make for quicker and more comprehensive models. So I wish the alliance luck and look forward to what is produced out of it.

 

Neil.

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Yeah 2 coders, 3, 4, 5+ modules.. not to mention testing and maintenance.

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CptSmiley is a FM coder

Zeus & Elwood are System coders.

 

So they have two system coders and one FM coder. Not more.

 

Three unfinished and buggy all over modules released, promised to touch nothing before those are finished and bug free, but also at the same time announced that the Mig-23 and the F-15 will hit DCS in 2020. They now also said that they will code the systems for the Bo-105 and also have the Super Tucano and Bronco in the pipeline.

 

If they don't have a Fluxcompensator I'm surprised to see how they'll stick to all their promises and with which quality they will deliver.

Small hint: If you bring those questions up the table, Decoy most likely gonna delete those posts and open questions remain unanswered. See the other Bo-105 thread here.

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Three unfinished and buggy all over modules released, promised to touch nothing before those are finished and bug free, but also at the same time announced that the Mig-23 and the F-15 will hit DCS in 2020. They now also said that they will code the systems for the Bo-105 and also have the Super Tucano and Bronco in the pipeline.

Really, are you sure of this? I was not aware that Razbam or ED had said that the Mig-23 and the F-15E will be arriving into DCS World some time in 2020. I do recall ED stating in the New Years newsletter:

What follows is a listing of aircraft projects that we and our valued partners will be working on in 2020. We do not expect all these projects to be released in 2020, but this is where our development focus will be in 2020.
and
Building upon their excellent M-2000C, Harrier, and MiG-19, RAZBAM is hard at work on the iconic F-15E Strike Eagle. Given the massive complexity and mission flexibility of this aircraft, it will be a very challenging module that we are sure RAZBAM will exceed expectations.
In the following weeks newsletter ED mentioned they had forgotten to include the Mig-23 in the prior news.

 

In any case I am just happy that the BO-105 will be coming to DCS. But its not a free pass from me. Razbam I know have been clear in stating that their focus is on completing the Harrier and M2k by the end of 2020. And I am going to hold them to that by not pre-purchasing any further Razbam modules including the already released Mig-19. I have faith that Razbam are working on and will complete the Harrier and M2k this year. Hopefully also Razbam will push ED to implement other features also into DCS World like the ability to plan in the mission editor to allow the Harrier to re-arm and re-fuel from non-FARP areas such as roadsides. Perhaps at the end of 2020 things in DCS will be a not be as rough as they were in 2019.

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CptSmiley is a FM coder

Zeus & Elwood are System coders.

 

So they have two system coders and one FM coder. Not more.

 

Three unfinished and buggy all over modules released, promised to touch nothing before those are finished and bug free, but also at the same time announced that the Mig-23 and the F-15 will hit DCS in 2020. They now also said that they will code the systems for the Bo-105 and also have the Super Tucano and Bronco in the pipeline.

 

If they don't have a Fluxcompensator I'm surprised to see how they'll stick to all their promises and with which quality they will deliver.

Small hint: If you bring those questions up the table, Decoy most likely gonna delete those posts and open questions remain unanswered. See the other Bo-105 thread here.

 

Nobody said anything about those modules coming in 2020, only that they exist and are planned. At this point all that exists is 3d models afaik, which has no relevance for bug fixing or fm coding. Rant if you must, but refrain from just outright making crap up.

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https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=260540

 

What else do you need? You know you won‘t get any dates...

 

That only says that they have one team for coding three available aircrafts which are far away from bug free or complete, and that they have four other, wait, five other in the pipeline. And everything is so written, that you could do easy tricks with the words.

 

If they stick to their promises to fix and finish the released ones before touching anything new, you should consider that a release, even as EA, for the F-15 or Mig-23 sounds completely undoable within 2020. So we are talking about 2021. Maybe. Still unrealistic.

Then there is still the Bronco and the Super Tucano. And then, there is the Bo.

 

So will the Bo get preferred over another module, or can we expect it somewhere around 2025?

 

You see, a roadmap would not need any specific dates. Even without years, it would be enough if they could tell what they wanna do in what particular order.

People paid a full price for the Mirage, the Harrier and the Mig-19. Razbam is still in the debt to deliver. It doesn't make a good picture for them if they keep announcing one module after the other while they still can't get existing ones fixed. They can't even get their bug section managed...

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I can understand your skepticism and the reason behind it, even fair given the facts and waiting bugs. But you are trapped in an infinite loop of deception, complaint and it appears non sense...

 

To start, you have a backlog (work planned for more than one year for sure):

 

- Mig 23

- F 15

- Bronco

- Super Tucano

- Bo 105

- Finishing current modules

 

And we have also some priorities and rough dates announced (start too look as a developer roadmap):

 

1) 2020 finishing the mirage, harrier and mig 19

2) Probably one new plane among the list in 2020 but I don’t remember the year clearly written as a promise somewhere, nor which plane

 

Your skepticism induced by a lack of confidence is fair but is also YOURS.

The fact that you have hard time to live with the uncertainty of the order in which planes will be released is also YOURS.

 

Don’t merge the facts with your own hopes and fears...

 

My guess is that the Bo-105 will take precedence over the F15 and to be honest I hope it will be the case. I love Razbam and the fact they give us non US planes (or at least not exclusively US).

 

However, I am like you and I also wait that the current modules are at least fixed and I also find the delay too long, I would prefer less hype news and more basic bug fixes like the missing bindings for the Mig19 and I will also ask myself the question if I will buy the next modules if the current state don’t change....

 

No reason to be anxious...

At the end, you will buy the next modules or not...

And this choice will be driven by how Razbam manage the whole things...

 

If they have already lost you, you should not be anymore in this part of the forum and add negative noise. In the contrary case, the facts are well known, your opinion, hopes and fears have been heard and you are for sure not alone and they know about it for sure...

 

@Razbam I am really happy by the Bo news and the idea to have a german helicopter ! Sooner will be better than later in your backlog :) But guys... don’t replicate the Gazelle story, please fix asap the basic bugs. It is as important, even more, than the amazing VR pilot, new mirage cockpit etc.

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That only says that they have one team for coding three available aircrafts which are far away from bug free or complete, and that they have four other, wait, five other in the pipeline. And everything is so written, that you could do easy tricks with the words.

 

If they stick to their promises to fix and finish the released ones before touching anything new, you should consider that a release, even as EA, for the F-15 or Mig-23 sounds completely undoable within 2020. So we are talking about 2021. Maybe. Still unrealistic.

Then there is still the Bronco and the Super Tucano. And then, there is the Bo.

 

So will the Bo get preferred over another module, or can we expect it somewhere around 2025?

 

You see, a roadmap would not need any specific dates. Even without years, it would be enough if they could tell what they wanna do in what particular order.

People paid a full price for the Mirage, the Harrier and the Mig-19. Razbam is still in the debt to deliver. It doesn't make a good picture for them if they keep announcing one module after the other while they still can't get existing ones fixed. They can't even get their bug section managed...

 

How is Decoy‘s statement so hard to interpret? The order seems quite clear to me: First finish existing modules, then move on to Eagle and Flogger. Since Bronco and Tucano aren‘t mentioned, they‘ll be afterwards. The only thing not clear is where the Bo will fit in. And since they signed the contracts literally a few days ago they might not be ready to share that info because it‘s probably not yet set in stone.

 

Regarding your last paragraph: we all know. You‘ve mentioned it about a hundred times, and it‘s off topic here.


Edited by spiddx

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How is Decoy‘s statement so hard to interpret?

 

Its not hard to interpret, it only leaves room for playing tricks with words.

 

When the Coders have finished the existing modules they will move onto new aircraft

 

This sentence, could also interpreted that they could code right now on the F-15 and Mig-23 because they are already existing.

Also, there have been a lot of talk and no walk from Razbam in the past, beside breaking promises.

 

@Chapa, very good post, I fully agree with it.

Only one little thing:

I would LOVE to leave this part of the forum, or at least stop being so angry about them. But I can't. As long as I've paid the full price for the Mirage and the Harrier, and as long as Razbam did not finished those in a DCS worthy quality, I will not sit still and watch little to no progress on those while there is one module after the other is announced and also released. Razbam is still in debt to deliver what they have been paid for. Lets see if they stick to their promises this time.

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Its not hard to interpret, it only leaves room for playing tricks with words.

 

 

 

This sentence, could also interpreted that they could code right now on the F-15 and Mig-23 because they are already existing.

Oh my goodness, really? In the words of John McEnroe, "You can't be serious?" So the below statement from Razbam is in your eyes nothing more than wilful deception or at the very least worded deliberately to provide wriggle room for them to get out of any deadline or to move the goalposts with regards to customer expectations? If so then I am sorry but I can only conclude that you are not approaching this in a fair minded manner. From the below statement of Razbam it is abundantly clear to me that they are dedicated to completing the existing three modules before commencing coding of new ones. And to me it is crystal clear that the word existing used by Razbam relates to modules that exist currently within the DCS World that are available to purchase by the public in either an early access or non-EA state.

 

Recently I have noticed a lot of rumours regarding which projects we are working on with a lot of old imagines are being shared on here and other social media with some believing we have started working on the eagle now.

 

As stated many times we are still committed to completing our existing modules before moving onto coding for new modules.

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As I said. I would be happy if all of my doubts are nonsense. Pastence prooved me other.

Lets see if the upcoming updates are full of bug-fixes, corrected and missing things for the Mirage, Harrier and Mig, and if they are really touching nothing else until those are complete and bug-free.

Again, I would be happy if so.


Edited by viper2097

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Its not hard to interpret, it only leaves room for playing tricks with words.

8<

 

That seems to be a massive issue with you viper; you think RAZBAM is trying to trick everyone (and apparently you in specific), and that if you can just force them to admit it, that they MUST absolutely must do what you want.

 

I've been working for a manufacturer for over 25 years. I've seen some unbelievable interactions between company and customer. I can assure you, EVEN IF Zeus were to say that everything RB has said about their plans was completely a lie, purposely spread to fool their customers, 5 minutes later and RAZBAM will still do what they find to be in their own best interest, which is exactly what every company in the world does. smh

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I don't think they do that, they did that already in the past multiple times.

Also, I guess that I'm not the only one who thinks that they have to finish what they already got paid for before they gonna start on something new.

They promised that already once. And then the Mig-19 came. With a lot of other broken promises.

 

So you see, my doubts are coming from the past experiences.

And in the recent change logs, Razbam shined only through absence.

I would prefer to see them actually do what they are always promising, and not only talking.


Edited by viper2097

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More coders is what's always needed for faster delivery of modules.

 

Not always. When you have a clever coder, they get slowdown by others. And if coder that needs to work with others, likely as well needs to start documenting their code, and that consumes more time than writing the code itself. And it will cut their path of thinking often so they need to start to go through again the process.

 

While programming is science, and you can study it as any other science and become an software engineer, a good coders do not need any of such things because code is not just engineering, it is poetry and mainly it is problem solving.

 

That is one of the problems with the excellent coders, that they might not have any education and so on any rules "how to" do things properly like in big corporations. They can be fluent in many languages and they think a lot out of the box, finding the means how to solve a problem.

 

It is similar like in sports, that you have great athlete but terrible in team games. So the coach job is to get them in line and work with the team. And more you get these great athletes to a team that can't work as a team, more problems you get in a big scale as the team starts to lose its integrity and dynamic capability to work around as each one is more of a solo stars than one big machine working together.

 

But I think that you meant that modules will come out faster and sooner when you have more workers for it to fill the positions for different tasks, like graphics artists for textures, audio engineer for audio, physicist for the algorithms, computer engineer for documenting code, hacker for inventing clever means to overcome the problems.

 

The computer history is full of clever people, some are excellent in programming like example John Carmack, and some are just excellent in business like Bill Gates and some are excellent to understand the whole concept of the product purpose like Steve Jobs was. Yet you can't put them all to one project as you get them collide with each others.

This is same thing why example Usability Engineers are extremely important in every production that is about user interfaces, but they are least wanted and hired because they will have full control of every detail of every product and they have the final word on everything that when something goes forward and when something goes back to drawing board. So they are seen as huge blockages by administration point of view as they just are slowing down things, regardless that they are making final products far better and more successful in the first place in long run.

But when you need to explain why the project schedule is made to be 1.5-2x longer than a business person is promising to client or some engineer is saying, it is because they will go and cut away many of the phases in quick prototyping and testing and they will focus more for a well known human behaviors and usability that is then as well cutting changes from creative people like artists and designers who do not understand the usability (two completely different areas) and so on they really dislike about usability engineers interference to their creativity process.

 

In this case when we have a new software module for DCS, you are right that two is likely far better than one. Three even better. But at some point the fourth, fifth, tenth etc becomes a trouble.

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There is no "promise" please stop using that word all the time

 

There is. As linked:

 

As stated many times we are still committed to completing our existing modules before moving onto coding for new modules.

 

Multiple times that thing is stated, so it is a promise.

 

I have seen first time only saying "We are not going to release any new modules before existing ones are completed" way, that was interpretable that they are coding MiG-23MLA and F-15E but are not going to release those for Early Access.

But what DECOY has said there, and clearly list the teams allocation, all coders are working on existing modules code, not on the new ones. And the 3D artists etc are all working on the new modules as they can't participate at all to exiting modules graphics and models because those are already done.

 

So what DECOY has said, shows that they are in good order proceeding forward as they have been promising that they do not work with other modules code until existing ones are ready (this doesn't mean that they make 100% perfect code etc, but that they get modules out of Early Access and feature complete).

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Posted on the Discord Channel of Razbam in the Bo-105 section after the question came up when the Bo-105 will be coded.

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=226977&stc=1&d=1581326190

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=226976&stc=1&d=1581325902

 

So lets talk again about "playing tricks on words" and how "toxic" I may be with my concerns.

So may I say now "As I told you?". But yeah, I'm the stupid, toxic guys who does not have any idea about business and customer relationship.

 

Business as usual at Razbam.

Playing tricks on customers. Promise something the one day, break it on the other. And of course, the customer missunderstood everything.

And additional to the discussion about what modules are active in developement, you see, paying customers in DCS are only a byproduct for them. No problem with that, but from the way they communicate and how they stick to their promises, or at elast said things, everyone can build his own opinion.

 

Good to know their priorities and how they stick to their promises...

Screenshot_20200210-101025.thumb.jpg.4cde7833891a757688bea3702452290c.jpg

Screenshot_20200210-101552.thumb.jpg.ee72664b9f55dd77d32823d31833dd1d.jpg


Edited by viper2097

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To be fair, they have stated that fact, DCS being just one of their businesses, more than once over the years. So assuming they would only spent their time working on their three released modules is fallacious. That being said, i would have hoped that the coders would only spent their DCS dev time on those three released modules and not on the F-15 and Mig-23, but there is no way of knowing anyway.

 

When i bought the Harrier it was right at the height when Razbam made some strides on the module in the first half of 2019.

 

I personally realize more and more that EA the way it works in the DCS ecosystem is not really for me, especially if their is not a proper bug -and feature tracker that is meticulously updated by the devs. My willingness to constantly be unsure of whether something is not yet implemented, wrongly or only in part implemented or something doesn't work because it's a bug has grown short.

 

And i bet even the F-14, touted to be fairly feature complete on EA, will have a multi year EA period nonetheless. Once something is released in EA dev. speed seems to slow down, at least that is my impression.

 

 

At the same time, i have so many modules that i can sink my teeth in at this point, that i really feel no urge to get into half finished stuff anymore. Additionally, it's fine anyway to buy those modules 3-5 years post EA release and drive up the long tail revenue figures a bit.


Edited by sc_neo
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