advice on chaff / flares programs

[jimblue74]

I would like your advice, on how to set up the release of chaffs / flares. In particular:

- what kind of program do you use? Auto, semiauto, man?

- assuming you use the manual, what programs do you set? Example: prog 1 XX flares XX chaff, prog 5 XX chaff XX flares, time interval, repetitions ....

[AvgWhiteGuy]

An interesting question that I too would like some guidance on. There has to be some general considerations for each profile (1-5) that handles most situations....with #5 being the 'holy shit' profile. Perhaps they are broken up as :

General Flight in potentially hostile area

Fence In

A/G

????

Holy Shit

 

Love to hear some feedback from you guys/gals on that

[frosen]

I'm not an expert but to my knowledge only the manual programs work atm (at least it used to be like that) for the Hornet.

 

What I find a little annoying is that I always need to create a "chaff only" program if I for example want to do a SEAD mission against some medium/long range SAM systems. There isn't that much variety in the preset programs.

[_mu110_]

There is a great explanation on the wiki on how to customize the default countermeasure programs: https://wiki.hoggitworld.com/view/F/A-18C#Editing_Default_Profiles

I usually fly with a chaff only program for 1, a flare program for 5, and a longer program with both chaff and flare on 2 that I can switch over to if I am conducting a ground attack for example. A lot of people also fly with the countermeasures set in bypass mode which gives you more flexibility and control over what's being expended, but also requires you to pay more attention to it.

[Harker]

I only use manual, no matter the module. I find auto programs very wasteful, for the most part. I might consider semi-auto for the Hornet, once it's implemented, since it'd save me from having to bring up the EW page.

 

Considering that I usually run the Hornet with 60 chaff/30 flares, I use:

 

 

1- Chaff low: 5x1 chaff, interval 1.00s

2- Chaff high: 10x1 chaff, interval 0.75s

3- Flares low: 5x1 flare, interval 1.00s

4- Flares fence in: 6x1 flare, interval 1.25s

5- Flares high: 3x1 flare, interval 0.25s

Slap switch- panic: 10x1 chaff+flare, interval 0.5s

 

After we get the 60 chaff/60 flares option, I'll become a little more liberal with my flare use.

 

 

 

My logic is that I use 1 for general purpose, SAM launches from long range (easy to defeat), 2 for BVR and when SAM launches from short range, 3 for when I expect IR threats only, 4 preemptively for bombing runs etc, 5 is always accessible, because you often have very little warning for an IR launch and the Slap switch is the "I don't know what's happening, but I see missiles" button, mapped on my throttle base. In a BVR engagement, I'll select 2 (and have 5 available), so I'll have a high chaff program and a high flare program at the ready.

[falcon_120]

I only use manual, no matter the module. I find auto programs very wasteful, for the most part. I might consider semi-auto for the Hornet, once it's implemented, since it'd save me from having to bring up the EW page.

 

Considering that I usually run the Hornet with 60 chaff/30 flares, I use:

 

 

1- Chaff low: 5x1 chaff, interval 1.00s

2- Chaff high: 10x1 chaff, interval 0.75s

3- Flares low: 5x1 flare, interval 1.00s

4- Flares fence in: 6x1 flare, interval 1.25s

5- Flares high: 3x1 flare, interval 0.25s

Slap switch- panic: 10x1 chaff+flare, interval 0.5s

 

After we get the 60 chaff/60 flares option, I'll become a little more liberal with my flare use.

 

 

 

My logic is that I use 1 for general purpose, SAM launches from long range (easy to defeat), 2 for BVR and when SAM launches from short range, 3 for when I expect IR threats only, 4 preemptively for bombing runs etc, 5 is always accessible, because you often have very little warning for an IR launch and the Slap switch is the "I don't know what's happening, but I see missiles" button, mapped on my throttle base. In a BVR engagement, I'll select 2 (and have 5 available), so I'll have a high chaff program and a high flare program at the ready.

 

 

I used to follow that approach, however, after many many hours in MP and getting the hang out of what you should be doing and what you should never do, i've moved to the following principle (which I feel is more clever and more true to RL operations):

 

-Make flare program really aggresive (something like 12 flares every 0.20 seconds), such that you will most likely defeat an IR shot at the expense of running out of it, which is ok since dieing with flares left IS A WASTE (Use them or loose them).

 

The reasoning is simple, if you receive an IR shot you did something very very very wrong, either you are fliyng too low and too close during CAS/SEAD, or you are getting too close during BVRing/CAPing or you got trapped in an ambush. In either case if you manage to survive then it is time to go home and rearm or go to friendly zone to regain your SA.

 

In the end, if you fly properly and to your strengths (Both technically and tactically) you should very randomly receive close shots from IRs (the exception being fighting flankers).

[Harker]

I used to follow that approach, however, after many many hours in MP and getting the hang out of what you should be doing and what you should never do, i've moved to the following principle (which I feel is more clever and more true to RL operations):

 

 

 

-Make flare program really aggresive (something like 12 flares every 0.20 seconds), such that you will most likely defeat an IR shot at the expense of running out of it, which is ok since dieing with flares left IS A WASTE (Use them or loose them).

 

 

 

The reasoning is simple, if you receive an IR shot you did something very very very wrong, either you are fliyng too low and too close during CAS/SEAD, or you are getting too close during BVRing/CAPing or you got trapped in an ambush. In either case if you manage to survive then it is time to go home and rearm or go to friendly zone to regain your SA.

 

 

 

In the end, if you fly properly and to your strengths (Both technically and tactically) you should very randomly receive close shots from IRs (the exception being fighting flankers).

I agree. Although I keep the MAN 5 flare program small (3 flares), I usually spam the button if I see a missile, until it's defeated. I know I should just go to the lua file and increase the quantity to at least 6 flares per press, but I've been lazy.

On the other hand, I did some (limited) testing with releasing 3x2 flares and I didn't find it more effective than 6x1 (in quick succession), at least not clearly more effective. If you know more about this in particular, including the same thing about chaff, I'd appreciate some discussion or some links.

[falcon_120]

I agree. Although I keep the MAN 5 flare program small (3 flares), I usually spam the button if I see a missile, until it's defeated. I know I should just go to the lua file and increase the quantity to at least 6 flares per press, but I've been lazy.

On the other hand, I did some (limited) testing with releasing 3x2 flares and I didn't find it more effective than 6x1 (in quick succession), at least not clearly more effective. If you know more about this in particular, including the same thing about chaff, I'd appreciate some discussion or some links.

There was a guy in this forum that run a very imteresting test with hundres of samples regarding the probability of defeating shots based on different combinations of chaff/flares (number and spacing between them). I will look for it to see i find it again and drop it here.

 

EDIT: So it turned out it was on reddit, here you go:

 

Kudos to tideroller2 who made this post.

 

Enviado desde mi SM-G950F mediante Tapatalk

Edited January 24, 2020 by falcon_120

[Harker]

There was a guy in this forum that run a very imteresting test with hundres of samples regarding the probability of defeating shots based on different combinations of chaff/flares (number and spacing between them). I will look for it to see i find it again and drop it here.

 

EDIT: So it turned out it was on reddit, here you go:

 

Kudos to tideroller2 who made this post.

 

Enviado desde mi SM-G950F mediante Tapatalk

Excellent, thanks! This'll finally make go and adjust my cm programs

[Tusker]

One of the lads (RedKite?) has an excellent video on this.

 

I took his advice and set up two profiles , #1 for chaff and #5 for flares. The red rocker on my TH Warthog throttle: forward = chaf and back=flares.

 

Next, I use the mod that automatically loads those profiles each time I get in the jet. Its a PIA to have to reprogram the countermeasures each time, so the mod is super- useful.

[Ziptie]

Simply edit the lua file, it passes IC and then you don’t have to set up the two profiles every time.

 

For me:

 

Program 1 = 0 chaff, 1 flare, RPT 2, INT 0.5

Program 5 = 1 chaff, 0 flare, RPT 2, INT 1.0

 

 

Program 6 is actually the “holy yikes / panic” program, according to manual.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Don

[wolf74]

I don't find the key for the "panic mode", program 6. Which key is assigned to that function?

What is the name in key list?

[Brun]

I don't find the key for the "panic mode", program 6. Which key is assigned to that function?

What is the name in key list?

There's no key assigned by default, it's listed as 'dispense button' in the control mappings.

[wilbur81]

In the Hornet, I always flip the switch all the way up to "Bypass" and just hit the 'chaff' or 'flare' button on my HOTAS rapidly depending on what I need. I never make programs. Of course, if you're flying against a Tomkitty with Phoenix... don't even bother bringing countermeasures...

[falcon_120]

In the Hornet, I always flip the switch all the way up to "Bypass" and just hit the 'chaff' or 'flare' button on my HOTAS rapidly depending on what I need. I never make programs. Of course, if you're flying against a Tomkitty with Phoenix... don't even bother bringing countermeasures...

Why? It is actually quite easy to dodge a phoenix combining good notch with agressive chaff. At least i can say i can do it enough as to feel comfortable fighting f14 in MP and avoid running away like there is no fight to put up.

 

Enviado desde mi SM-G950F mediante Tapatalk

[wilbur81]

It is actually quite easy to dodge a phoenix

 

Oh, do show us some videos of how easy it is. :)

 

And how often does a Tomcat shoot just one Phoenix at you?

Edited January 26, 2020 by wilbur81

[Ziptie]

I don't find the key for the "panic mode", program 6. Which key is assigned to that function?

What is the name in key list?

 

It is labeled as dispense, and physical location is the red button on the port wall of the aircraft. In a real aircraft, easy to hit with elbow in a “panic” situation. Not so easy in DCS.

 

 

 

Cheers

 

Don

[FoxxyTrotty]

Yeah trying to dodge the phoenix with a bit of notching and chaff ain't the easiest thing to do. For 1, how many times do you see the missile miss you by couple hundred feet, only to die 2-3 seconds later from it/follow up. The smokeless are a nightmare, and unless you got clear intel on who shot it, you've very little idea where the thing even is, especially when its busy.

Ultimately you can only ever truely put 1 incoming on your 3-9 and even from the same guy, the second+ missile is always going to be a couple degrees or more off that line.

 

There's a reason the majority of the blue team spends much their time tree dodgin on GS server these days. That being said, tree huggun has its advantages when u got the HMD+9x =)