F4 PHANTOM

[Dragon1-1]

Well, seeing as we don't actually have a proper Vietnam map, I'd prefer a Desert Storm-era Phantom. It was still a Vietnam-style aircraft like the MiG-21, but slightly updated. It'd fit in with the Tomcat and the MiG-21 model that we have, as well as 2000s planes like the F-16 and F-18. Phantom remained in service for quite a while, playing second fiddle to newer airframes. In the US service, it didn't get extensively updated (Germany and Turkey are another matter), and would provide a similar experience to a genuine Vietnam variant.

[bies]

2 hours ago, TotenDead said:

Typical F-4 fanbase:
- We want an F-4, it's such an iconic plane! We could make vietnam era battles even more realistic as there were so many phantoms in Vietnam!
- Okay, so which version do you want? 

- Ze yone from lait eiteez

 

Exactly this. IDK why someone would want last, most worn out, overweight variants, close to retirement, outdated, post it's Vietnam war, post it's glory as a high performance top notch fighter.

 

Phantom from 1980s would be just a n old poor cousin of F-14s and F-15s. Close to retirement. Degraded to secondary duties and lower threat environment less dangerous missions and training, outperformed by it's far more modern enemies.

 

Vietnam war was the time this was a shiny powerful fighter. Maybe the best in the world and for sure the most capable/universal. Having time to climb records as a testimony to it's kinematic performance.

 

1980s Phantom would be like F-16 from mid 2000s, old, close to retirement, overweight, in a shadow of incomparably more capable F-22 in active service.

 

Wait...

From which year is our F-16?

Edited January 25, 2021 by bies

[lmp]

25 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Well, seeing as we don't actually have a proper Vietnam map, I'd prefer a Desert Storm-era Phantom.

 

So a Phantom that would fit on another map that we don't have?

 

How about an early F-4E that would make sense for Turkish AF, Israeli AF, Iranian AF - the air forces we can create realistic scenarios for right now - and possibly Vietnam Era USAF if we ever get the map and assets? Would this be possible? I don't know what the exact differences between the variants delivered to those 3 or 4 air forces were, but I bet some of you know ;).

[Dragon1-1]

It would fit just fine on Syria and Persian Gulf. Iranians, I think, use some older variant, but both Turks and Israelis overhauled them completely, adding a HUD and AIM-120 compatibility.

[Northstar98]

2 hours ago, TotenDead said:

Typical F-4 fanbase:

- We want an F-4, it's such an iconic plane! We could make vietnam era battles even more realistic as there were so many phantoms in Vietnam!
- Okay, so which version do you want? 

- Ze yone from lait eiteez

 

More like retired in the late 80s...

 

The variants that seem most requested are the E and the J, both Vietnam era (introduced mid-to-late 60s) 

 

The S is late 70s (just after Vietnam), last ones retired in the late 80s.

K is late 60s, retired in the late 70s (FAA), and mid 80s (RAF)

M is also late 60s, retired in the early 90s (RAF)

 

So out of all them, there's only 1 variant that isn't Vietnam era, and it's not by much (yes, I know F-4K/M wasn't in Vietnam, but it's still Vietnam-era i.e mid 50s - mid 70s).

 

The F-4J(UK) Phantom F.3 is the only one I can think of that's mid 80s (and that isn't the J we're talking about).

 

And AIM-9L is late 70s (though realistically, we'd be using the AIM-9D, E, G, H and J).

 

 

Let's not talk about the barbarians people proposing the F-4E Terminator 2000

Edited January 26, 2021 by Northstar98

[lmp]

My thinking is a vanilla, 1970ish vintage F-4E could fit most scenarios well enough. An upgraded F-4E will only really fit with the one air force that upgraded it. But I don't really know how big are the differences between a USAF vanilla F-4E, an Israeli vanilla F-4E and so on. In case of other aircraft the differences can be huge despite a similar designation, that's why I'm asking.

[WinterH]

Vietnam is DCS is a no-go right now. If we get an F-4E, and it is a Vietnam variant, it would be more or less a huge waste. 80's one is the one to go, because it fits Cold War scenarios, can be still sort of workable underdog in post-Cold War, and to some degree can work for older scenarios with restricted loadout, as the radar is still the same, though its agility and navigation systems will be better than old variants.

 

Similarly, the most any naval Phantom can provide over this would be possible with a late naval F-4S, because they got a new radar with look-down capabilities.

 

We have a good bit of 80s stuff both as ai and flyable modules. There are quite a few upcoming ones that would fit too. Vietnam map is not coming, and we have almost zero Vietnam era aircraft with Vietnam era capabilities. F-5E we have is more advanced by a fair bit than F-5Es served there, which were a footnote in that conflict anyway. MiG-21Bis was not available for Vietnamese air forces, and what they had instead had a lot less capable engine and radar. Only things that barely fit are MiG-19 if you squint hard enough, and UH-1H if you restrict its loadouts. Upcoming F-8 will fit too, but it will be a void...

 

When it comes to Phantom in DCS, 80s versions are really the ones that make sense.

[bies]

When it comes to Navy line there was nearly no such thing as 1980s Phantoms, there was only so many aircraft carriers and in early 1980s F-14 were numerous enough to fill them

Quote

In 1984, all Navy F-4Ns were retired from Fleet service in deployable USN squadrons and by 1987 the last F-4Ss were retired from deployable USN squadrons.

 

 

 

That's what this once great top performing fighter was worth then:

Quote

Since 1991,  254 Phantoms have served as unpiloted flying targets for missile and gun tests conducted near Tyndall Air Force Base in Florida and Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico.

 

But argument of @WinterH - lack of Vietnam era planes and map is very good and valid.

 

Considering all of that i think the best solution would be an F-4E from the very end of Vietnam war and mid 1970s.

Direct timeframe equivalent of MiG-21bis from 1972, F-5E from 1973 and further Mirage F.1C from 1973, A-7E from 1970, F-8J from 1969 (all of them would be finished far before Phantom even if they would start making it today)

Looks something like an early 1970 cold war gone hot in Europe.

 

 

PS. On the other hand it's a shame, since early 1970s all of this planes except A-7 and Mirage F.1 were a bit outdated already.

First variants of F-8, MiG-21, were in service from late 1950s, F-5 and Phantoms from mid 1960s etc. This was a time they gleamed as top performance impresive planes being the forefront of developement and represents desigh philosophy of mid to late 1950s.

Edited January 26, 2021 by bies

[Dragon1-1]

Well, we could also have the F-4G Wild Weasel V. This was a derivative of the E (ideally we'd get both, the differences aren't great) and it served with distinction in the Gulf, during Desert Storm and Southern Watch, especially. It would be a great support aircraft from the 80s and early 2000s.

[Silver_Dragon]

16 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Well, we could also have the F-4G Wild Weasel V. This was a derivative of the E (ideally we'd get both, the differences aren't great) and it served with distinction in the Gulf, during Desert Storm and Southern Watch, especially. It would be a great support aircraft from the 80s and early 2000s.

 

G version has diferent suite dedicated to EW and aft cockpit with specialized electronic, very dificult found EW info about them.

 

[Northstar98]

Personally I'd stick to the 70s - it is easily the era of the Phantom II, among multiple users.

 

Plus that's where the more popular variants fit in. It would also fit the timeframe of the MiG-21bis and the F-5E-3, as well as for the variants of the SA-2, SA-3, SA-5 (if it ever gets implemented) and SA-8.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Northstar98

[Fangs Out]

i personal want a F4E with Pave Spike and Middle of the road with block numbers (a block 45 E)

[Northstar98]

9 minutes ago, Bravelink03 said:

i personal want a F4E with Pave Spike and Middle of the road with block numbers (a block 45 E)

 

For an E I'd go at least Block 53, which I think added Mavericks.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Northstar98

[Fangs Out]

I would rather have a F-4D and a late F-4E , plus maybe a F-4J or S but S is pretty much a F-4J with smokeless engines , slats but no gun. J is the first phantom with a Pulse Doppler Radar and is very important for Naval aviation (Duke Cunningham, does that name ring a bell ).

[Fangs Out]

Plus F-4D could have Aim-4 Falcons( alright, if your target isnt moving) Aim-9B( see last comment) Echo winders, Juliet winders, e-2 or E-3 Sparrows For A2A. Correct me if Im wrong but F-4Ds could use anything the F-4C used but with more Guided weaponry depending on the block number.

[WinterH]

80s E or bust

[upyr1]

22 hours ago, bies said:

 

Exactly this. IDK why someone would want last, most worn out, overweight variants, close to retirement, outdated, post it's Vietnam war, post it's glory as a high performance top notch fighter.

 

Phantom from 1980s would be just a n old poor cousin of F-14s and F-15s. Close to retirement. Degraded to secondary duties and lower threat environment less dangerous missions and training, outperformed by it's far more modern enemies.

 

Vietnam war was the time this was a shiny powerful fighter. Maybe the best in the world and for sure the most capable/universal. Having time to climb records as a testimony to it's kinematic performance.

 

1980s Phantom would be like F-16 from mid 2000s, old, close to retirement, overweight, in a shadow of incomparably more capable F-22 in active service.

 

Wait...

From which year is our F-16?

 

I want the Vietnam era F-4 Phantom II , I don't mind a later F-4E upgrade  or even a G just as long as I get my Nam  era Phantoms.   

Edited January 26, 2021 by upyr1

[upyr1]

9 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Well, we could also have the F-4G Wild Weasel V. This was a derivative of the E (ideally we'd get both, the differences aren't great) and it served with distinction in the Gulf, during Desert Storm and Southern Watch, especially. It would be a great support aircraft from the 80s and early 2000s.

I just don't see the G happening. There is just too much stuff I don't see being publicly available 

[Fangs Out]

What about the F-4D

[bies]

On 1/26/2021 at 12:17 AM, Dragon1-1 said:

Well, seeing as we don't actually have a proper Vietnam map, I'd prefer a Desert Storm-era Phantom.

 

"By the time of Desert Storm in January 1991, almost all of the F-4Es had been withdrawn from active duty USAF units."

 

"The last F-4E left Air National Guard service in 1991, when the 113th TFS of the Missouri ANG converted to F-16C/D fighters."

Edited January 26, 2021 by bies

[Nodak]

Phantom was still solidly the tip of the spear in Europe thru 86, it was the one still sitting zulu alert while everyone else was busy ramping up training and converting.  E model in Nam was rather late to the show, its early performance was pretty lackluster forcing the D into keeping the production line going at full blower, the E was nearly canceled with its first pick radar pack a failure.  Ended up with nearly as many D's built as a result, Iran acquired many late block D's, the only foreign user of the D besides ROKAF, still in service.

 

D and the J are probably the closest matches also covering the widest time frame of any two plane phantom set built.  Not enough B's and C's came back from the meat grinder to ever be relevant beyond Nam. 

Edited January 27, 2021 by Nodak

[Baco]

The no  Vietnam map argument is ridiculous, DCS had NO map for its airframes for over 10 years... no US airframe EVER flew in the Caucasus.. No carrier ever entered the black sea.

 

A Late Phantom is redundant, the 14, 16 or 18 can do it better whatever it is..

 

Now in the 60s and 70s there were no 14s 16s or 18s.. and the Phantom Shines..

We are getting Corsair IIs and Crusaders.. I say complete the Series give us the Naval version.

 

No I don´t want look down shoot down on a phantom thats why I got the tomcat!!! I want early air combat with its problems and solutions: tactics.

 

Don't give us  another Server Prima Donna.. give us a real aircraft to learn to  fly and fight in.

Its the problem with DCS general public the want planes to go kill things undisputed in MP servers.. General Dynamics F-16 A or B would have been a first day buy for me...

But nooo we have the uber Block 52, so you cant even simulate any other nato country around the world that has the A as the backbone of its air force...

Its even out of date for Desert Storm scenarios...

[Fangs Out]

I agree , F-4E I hope for is one from 72 or 75  with Juliet winders and E-4 Sparrows, Maybe AGM-65A mavericks and GBU-10,  but definitely BOLT-117 and GBU-8 HOBOS

[streakeagle]

The obvious choice is the early F-4B/C as they were in 1965-66: you can provide both USN and USAF variants with minimal difference in 3d model, aerodynamics and systems. For just a bit more work and charging an addon fee, you can make the F-4B/C into the F-4D and/or F-4N.  Imagine buying one module and getting so many variants. The key problem is that the F-4 underwent continuous improvements. So the F-4B has quite the list of changes until it changed so much that they called it the F-4N. The principal area of improvement was RWR/ECM, but if you study the flight manuals, you will find that the cockpits and system functionality of things such as flaps changed a bit over time, too beyond the addition/integration of more capable RWR systems/displays. Even the stick and throttle grips kept changing whether it was bolting on an extra switch to a throttle grip or a completely new stick grip to help support early HOTAS functionality. I am greedy. I want ALL of the F-4 variants that ever entered service. But I am also desperate and will settle for any one variant. If I can have only one, an early, slatted F-4E from 1972 Vietnam would be my preference or maybe a Vietnam F-4J. But I will take any variant I can get, including the Spey engined RN and RAF variants, which also went through many upgrades.

Edited January 27, 2021 by streakeagle

[ebabil]

f4e 2020 terminator variant

modern hud, f16 like ICP, popeye and som-j missiles

this would be great