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On 12/4/2020 at 5:10 AM, Schlomo1933 said:

So when we will get those microswitches simulated ? Cant be so hard to programm it,that the AP is Switch off when the Stick is moved out of center. 

 

And Holding the trimbutton pressed, IS unrealistic !

 


Stop spreading misinformation. The helicopter can be trimmed both by clicking the trimmer to recenter the stick-forces after you have chosen a new attitude, or by holding the trimmer in, moving it to a new position and releasing. The preference lies in the pilot's technique of flying. Some do it one way, others do it the other. An instructor would only ever point out what you shouldn't do, and what might be recommended, but at the end of the day, there are as many ways to fly an aircraft as there are people in the world. Everyone has their own technique, just like with driving cars. In MI24 for example, there is additionally a trim hat-switch, and some pilots only use that. Some use a mix of all three, depending on speed, approach-attitude, etc... Simply put, there is not one correct way to fly an aircraft, and neither trimming it. I would give you examples, but most of them are written or recorded in russian (as Ka50 is a russian product), which I am pretty sure you don't understand. That's all there is to it. Again, stop claiming things without knowing it for sure, doesn't add anything but confusion. Better ask than state, there are those of us here that, although not real pilots, do have access to original info from Russia.

 

 

Here is an example showing MI24 trim, worth noting it's on the ground while demonstrating. This pilot uses the click-and-hold method (also shows the collective brake, and how that works):

 

 

 


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Micro switches. When Ka-50 stick is pulled back with enough force system recognizes this and stops adding control channel input counter to pilot input. DCS does not have micro switches and so control channel input increases to maximum to fight pilot input. When DCS models micro switches then stick movement then tap trim button will be a reasonable technique, not before.

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Am 22.12.2020 um 19:33 schrieb Frederf:

Micro switches. When Ka-50 stick is pulled back with enough force system recognizes this and stops adding control channel input counter to pilot input. DCS does not have micro switches and so control channel input increases to maximum to fight pilot input. When DCS models micro switches then stick movement then tap trim button will be a reasonable technique, not before.

 

Thats what i mean !

 

Is it so hard to simulate those microswitches ? 

Am 21.12.2020 um 23:02 schrieb zerO_crash:


Stop spreading misinformation. The helicopter can be trimmed both by clicking the trimmer to recenter the stick-forces after you have chosen a new attitude, or by holding the trimmer in, moving it to a new position and releasing. The preference lies in the pilot's technique of flying. Some do it one way, others do it the other. An instructor would only ever point out what you shouldn't do, and what might be recommended, but at the end of the day, there are as many ways to fly an aircraft as there are people in the world. Everyone has their own technique, just like with driving cars. In MI24 for example, there is additionally a trim hat-switch, and some pilots only use that. Some use a mix of all three, depending on speed, approach-attitude, etc... Simply put, there is not one correct way to fly an aircraft, and neither trimming it. I would give you examples, but most of them are written or recorded in russian (as Ka50 is a russian product), which I am pretty sure you don't understand. That's all there is to it. Again, stop claiming things without knowing it for sure, doesn't add anything but confusion. Better ask than state, there are those of us here that, although not real pilots, do have access to original info from Russia.

 

 

 

 

 

Here is an example showing MI24 trim, worth noting it's on the ground while demonstrating. This pilot uses the click-and-hold method (also shows the collective brake, and how that works):

 

 

You are spreading misinformation !

1.) You are not only show a video from a different helicopter , no .....  its also a complete different brand! 

 

2.) This Video dont show this helicopter flying, it shows only a guy mesing arround with the cyclic and trimm button while he is sitting on the ground. 

 

Show me your original infos from Russia ! 

 


Edited by Schlomo1933
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2 hours ago, Schlomo1933 said:

 

Thats what i mean !

 

Is it so hard to simulate those microswitches ? 

 

Here is an example showing MI24 trim, worth noting it's on the ground while demonstrating. This pilot uses the click-and-hold method (also shows the collective brake, and how that works):

 

 

You are spreading misinformation !

1.) You are not only show a video from a different helicopter , no .....  its also a complete different brand! 

 

2.) This Video dont show this helicopter flying, it shows only a guy mesing arround with the cyclic and trimm button while he is sitting on the ground. 

 

Show me your original infos from Russia ! 

 

 


No you are, you have first and foremost nothing to back up your statement. Even the manual states against you! You have no idea what you are talking about! Mil and Kamov might be different brands, but trimmers work the same, and they have the same trimming options except Mi24 having additional trim switch! Except that, they work the same. Mi8 doesn't have the hatswitch for trimming, and thus is directly comparable to Ka52's. 
 

The video is from the ground with engines shut down because of demonstrating the extreme trimming that can be done with click-trimmer. If he did that while in the air, it would tear the helicopter apart, in the least, it would highly uncomfortable to do it. Regardless, the pilot would not show a method of trimming that is not permitted in operation. I am surprised that I have to explain this at such a basic level to you.

 

Ka226 - Pilot uses mixed method of trimming where he seems to be using clicking when he wants to make smaller attitude changes, and after takeoff (around 4 min. into the video) uses hold-trim to make up for greater attitude changes. This post is a discussion with SL-PAK who is an ED Team member. 
 

Because of error accumulation, it is common-practice that when a pilot is close to the final attitude, he clicks the trimmer multiple times to somewhat erase the error and find the perfect sweet spot for he stick. In other words, raw adjustments of helicopter attitude are done with click-and-hold, while fine adjustments (small changes in attitude) are done by clicking and releasing the trimmer. This can often be observed in all of the videos posted on yt. This is common practice, doesn't mean always. Again, ED-staff. 
 

I can post much much more, and not only from ED-staff or forums, but from actual sources (Google translate won't work for pictures for you)! It won't change a thing, at the end of the day, I know my stuff, and you don't! I am right, and you are wrong! It's that simple. You better get accustomed to that idea, because it's clear to my as day that you have no idea what you are talking about! Most of all, given how the trimmer works, why it should at all be "wrong" to click and hold the trimmer, adjust attitude and finish off by releasing the trimmer-button. It's all demagogy. Not only is it wrong with regards to IRL, but it doesn't even make sense on the technical level! That's it. Now go and do your homework (manual), the question is fully explained there, there is nothing to debate! And stop confusing people!


Edited by zerO_crash

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4 hours ago, Frederf said:

Zero, in Ka-50 with hold engaged, and pilot pushes stick forward a small amount, does system add opposite direction cyclic and completely erase his input?

Fred: If by hold, you mean holding down the trimmer, then by any means, no. There is no counter force by the system at that point. By engaging the trimmer, you are indeed simulating a situation where FD is on, for as long as the trim button is held. Thus, no countering input from AP 😉

 

Or do you mean AP hold engaged? In this case, if all the AP dampening/stabilization channels are engaged (except FD), then yeah, the AP will zero them out by inputting and equal and opposite vector on the cyclic. This is if your movement is within of AP's 25% authority. If it is outside of 25%, then AP doesn't have the authority to moderate your stick inputs and you are in command. You can test this out in DCS. If you make minute inputs, the helicopter will indeed change it's attitude to begin with, however shortly after,  the AP will counter that and bring back the helicopter to it's originally trimmed attitude, and thus speed. The reaction there is slow on AP's side because the reaction, as per the design, is rather gradual so as to avoid abrupt forces on the stick, and helicopter movement.

 

Merry Christmas to all by the way 🥳


Edited by zerO_crash

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And you say this is how real Ka-50 is designed, fighting pilot input?

 

Pilot is pushing cyclic forward, system is maximum authority backward, and then trim button is pressed. Does this not immediately dump all system input back to zero with large upset?

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8 hours ago, Frederf said:

And you say this is how real Ka-50 is designed, fighting pilot input?

 

Pilot is pushing cyclic forward, system is maximum authority backward, and then trim button is pressed. Does this not immediately dump all system input back to zero with large upset?

Fred, this is how the real Ka50 is designed, yes. It differs here in comparison to other helicopters before it (Russian, American, etc...) in that it doesn't have that logic to use microswitches to disconnect AP by overriding it's authority. It's also the only helicopter in the world (and Ka52) that has such a sophisticated AP with this much authority for the AP to command. There is nothing even remotely close out there that is this augmented, because there is no other single seat attack helicopter out there. 
 

If you are fighting AP, then you are flying it wrong, most notably, not trimming enough. This helicopter is fantastic in that it is so autopilot driven, yet can be flown by hand with only the dampeners on and no AP-hold per se. Couple that with the maneuverability of this beast and you have the best performing helicopter in the world, pretty much in every category. It's about understanding how it works.

 

Generally you should fly with Pitch Dampener and Bank Dampener. Those two are mandatory and dampen your input so as to give you filtered, but smooth flying qualities. Those two are always on, flying without them is emergency. With only those two engaged, the helicopter holds nothing, only dampens your inputs. You do not really need to trim here, you are not fighting anything, but you need to make strong moves with the cyclic for the helicopter to be maneuvered to it's potential. Still, the helicopter is incredibly stable and this is how you fly it basic. You can engage the the FD-switch, which in turn will turn off the automatic angular stabilization. Keep in mind that the dampeners are still active for pitch and bank. Again, you don't really have to trim here, the helicopter is not fighting you, and now with FD on, it is incredibly responsive and aggressive in maneuvers at the cost of stability. This is what you would fly in if you wish to maneuver much, again FD can be off, but then you get back automatic angular stabilization, and the helicopter will feel a bit stiffer in lateral movements, something that is countered by deflecting the stick more than with FD on. In reality, you would have stick-forces acting on your cyclic, thus trimming would be recommended here for sheer pilot workload (this is similar for us with sticks that have springs as well). For realism, I still recommend trimming here, but you really don't need to.

 

Now, the two other autopilot channels, altitude hold and heading hold, are two that you can choose independently of each other, and are used depending on what you need at the given situation. If you are flying long in a straight line or engaging a site from a long distance, maybe scouting out an area and need to focus on Shkval, well, then engage the heading hold, and if you wish to change your heading and assign a new one for the AP to hold, use trim button. Alternatively, every time you turn on the AP heading hold, it will hold the heading that you had at the moment it was engaged. Both work, though trim on the stick is more accessible. Otherwise, if you are not doing something that takes your attention away from flying, or not in need of flying straight, turn it off. Same goes for altitude hold, if you need either barometric or radar altitude hold, then engage it then, otherwise, leave it out. This could be for example when you wish to hover in a place, be it automatically or manually. It will relieve you of having to maneuver the helicopter as well as keeping your eye on the collective. This time around, you use collective brake to erase/assign new altitude, works the same way as trimming. Again, you can also engage AP altitude hold, and it will hold the altitude you had at the moment you engaged the AP altitude hold channel, be it barometric or radar. If you don't specifically need it, turn it off. With these channels engaged, you MUST trim and collective brake for every change in attitude or height, otherwise, you are fighting the AP. The only time you would fight the AP here is the heat of the combat, but then you focus on evading and targeting. Still, you are only one click away from having the helicopter fly for you and you able to focus on aiming that 30 mm. If you turn FD-channel on with all four AP's engaged, it will turn off both heading hold, altitude hold and automatic angular stabilization. Now you are not fighting the AP, but you are less stable because of lacking automatic angular stabilization. This is why I say, turn it off, rather than engaging FD with all 4 channels on. That way, you neither fight AP, nor do you lose that important stabilization.
 

Ultimately, think of the trimmer in Ka50 as a microswitch in itself. Every time you press it, it erases your current trim, releases stick forces, and disables stabilization (thus simulates FD switch on), making the helicopter feel very non-augmented and unstable as long as you hold it. The stabilization temporarily shuts off, but the dampening is still there. When you release the trim, everything comes back on, along with a new trimmed position. If you have heading hold on, you will assign a new heading for that channel to hold. It doesn't do anything to the altitude hold, for that you need to use collective brake. 

 

In simple terms, you should always trim the helicopter, for every move you make, for every change you do. That way, you will never fight the AP, and the helicopter will feel like a dream to fly. I remember a ED-tester wrote back in the day a post for people who didn't understand the autopilot in Ka50. I will link it to you, and if there is still something you wonder about, I will gladly explain. Remember Fred, if you are fighting AP, you are doing it wrong. It means you must either change the AP configuration, or use the trimmer more actively. This would make even more sense if you hade a ffb cyclic and were able to trim it out of centre. This helicopter is out of this world, just amazing what Kamov pulled off with it. The often mentioned obstacle of fighting AP is not an existing problem at all, if a pilot has the right technique and knows the autopilot inside out, like real pilots do.
 

 


Edited by zerO_crash
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  • 2 weeks later...

@zerO_crash I must admit I got a bit lost in the beginning of that, and started disagreeing with your earlier paragraphs on FD. But. Totally agree. FD = Holding down the trim button and Trim release does nothing for Alt hold - for that you need collective brake or alt-hold AP channel off-on. I'm also convinced AP channels disengage and let you do your thing if you overpower them with stronger movements, but once your stick/rudder motions settle down to small levels the AP channels will try to 'correct' the erroneous parameters of your new flight regime unless you trim.

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16 hours ago, Volk. said:

@zerO_crash I must admit I got a bit lost in the beginning of that, and started disagreeing with your earlier paragraphs on FD. But. Totally agree. FD = Holding down the trim button and Trim release does nothing for Alt hold - for that you need collective brake or alt-hold AP channel off-on. I'm also convinced AP channels disengage and let you do your thing if you overpower them with stronger movements, but once your stick/rudder motions settle down to small levels the AP channels will try to 'correct' the erroneous parameters of your new flight regime unless you trim.

 

Then you are wrong, AP channels never "disengage" when you move the cyclic/collective outside of their 25% authority without trimming (The light on each AP-channel indicates their operation, and it never turns off when you hold the trim-button in.). This is both in the manual, my sources, as well as can be tested in flight. If you have all channels AP channels engaged (except FD), and trim the helicopter for say 200km/h (nose down), heading 090* and altitude 40m ASL, then fighting the AP and moving outside of it´s authority will give you nothing if you don´t hold the stick in the new position or trim for it. If you let go of the stick, the helicopter will return back to it´s trimmed parameters. This is also a bad technique of flying because you are "fighting" the helicopter, and as a real pilot, would probably be tired by the immense forces acting on the stick, after only a couple of minutes of flight (that´s why the exception here is an emergency). Not only that, but the helicopters reaction time when doing manoeuvres is severely impeded. When you hold the trimmer button in, you put AP Heading Hold into standby for the duration of you holding in the trimmer, it never turns off. As for AP pitch and bank dampeners, nothing happens to them, they are still operating, you never put them into standby with the trimmer. However, angular stabilisation gets suppressed until you release the trim-button. There is nothing to argue here, this is how it works. Also, it´s important to specify what AP channels you talk about, because they work different.

 

Also, FD =/= holding down the trim button. FD is an AP mode, and holding the trimmer button down simulates FD, but it is not FD per se. The obvious difference here is that in FD mode, you would still trim the real aircraft because of the forces acting on the stick, whereas with trim button held down, you are simulating FD, but have severely reduced the forces acting on the stick for as long as you hold the trim-button in. That is a major difference between those and actual flying with them engaged (FD or Trim engaged/pressed in).

 

The last part you write is correct, but you draw incorrect conclusions from it. The "small levels" you talk about are within 25% of the range of the trimmed point. 

 

Where did you get lost?


Edited by zerO_crash

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For the sake of this thread, it´s interesting to see how long this pilot holds the trimmer while making adjustments. He does it most certainly to avoid fighting the cyclic-forces. He lands by holding the trimmer in. It´s a Mi-17 for reference, but applies to pretty much all russian helicopters.

 

Check 03:56 and onwards for observing his thumb move when he trims (you can also hear the clicking):

 

 

 

 


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On 12/12/2020 at 1:08 PM, Ranma13 said:

In the real helicopter and with FFB joysticks, you want to tap the trimmer because holding it down will remove the centering force on the stick, making it flop around.

 

With a FF joystick and non-centering joystick with a extensions, I prefer the hold method for maneuvering, and I use the constant tapping when I am doing very small corrections (like heading 2-3 degrees or speed correction by 5 km/h).

 

When I am going to perform a fast pop-up rocket attack I will use hold method as I have dampening to my inputs and I have full authority for small and accurate controls as well to do the large moves (I fly the helicopter to move the rocket pipper on the target)

When I am going to do a attack run with distance, then I use a tap method as I will trim the helicopter for the attitude I see to be required on the release of rockets (I trim the helicopter so rocket pipper will arrive on the target at wanted distance)

 

You do not want to fly helicopter with a forces affecting your controls. So the cyclic is with magnetic break that will try to keep it on trimmed position and it will make you more challenged to make fine adjustments. Why without force trim your cyclic is completely free to move at any direction, and you fly it with just finger tips. But you are as well required to do constant corrections as without dampening system that AP channels provides it will react them quickly. While dampening system allows you to react to your movements and helps avoid doing over-corrections. And with AP channels active, helicopter does with limits of its authority to fly the helicopter in parameters as programmed from controllers position.

 

It is good to know how to use both and when, as neither one is better or "more correct" than other.

 

 

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7 hours ago, zerO_crash said:

Then you are wrong, AP channels never "disengage"

Ok, lemme rephrase. I've done various tests of turning bank/rudder explicitly comparing FD vs Hold-Trim vs all AP Channels off vs channels on but not holding/tapping trim. Not holding trim made no discernable difference in the speed of the turn, nor reaction times to when the Black Shark starts moving. I'm not saying it shouldn't affect it, but in the sim it doesn't.

It can't just be the movement went over the authority limits of the AP channels (think it might be 20%, not 25%, but anyway), as then the timings would reflect that 25% resistance, but they don't. This is from tests about 4-ish months ago.

 

What I haven't tested is small minute adjustments to see if it fights one then, but definitely not on the larger movements.

Definitely it'll start 'fighting' you when you're trying to settle in on your new heading when you start easing up the controls and don't trim. I agree flying without trim is bad technique and I definitely don't recommend flying this way.

 

7 hours ago, zerO_crash said:

Mi-17 for reference, but applies to pretty much all russian helicopters

There's footage of Ka-50s where you can hear the clicking. I'm not sure it's exactly the same mechanics running in Mi Mil's stuff and Kamov at that time though.

 

8 hours ago, zerO_crash said:

Also, FD =/= holding down the trim button

I am not super-familiar with FFB usage - simply am not fortunate enough to own one or fork out on a Brunner. But from your further description, it doesn't trim. I agree tapping trim in FD is still necessary for it to retain you stick position (though it slightly sucks at maintaining your AP channel parameters compared to hold trim once you let go of the stick), but surely it also relieves the force necessary to move the stick from it's trimmed position, otherwise you're fighting the hydraulics all the way, i.e. hold trim = FD while you're holding down the button. Once you release trim, it's trimmed and as stable as it can be (if you've settled on the flight path etc), but of course FD they stick might not have the same impetus to stay in position perhaps?

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Small quirks to AP authority.

 

The ALTitude hold does get a new altitude setting when you release trimmer or tap it.

But since it only has so much authority, and in most cases or "collectives" (often another stick) don't really have brakes, the hold is effectively disabled if your collective is set such as the helicopter is gaining or losing altitude faster than around 3 m/s, which is why you need to input collective to stabilize the new altitude in the new flight parameters (heading, pitch, bank) to 2 m/s or less before you release the trimmer. Then it'll set and hold a new altitude as well. No need to use the collective brake in this case, as it does nothing without a real brake in place.

 

The use for the collective brake is that you can set a new altitude without affecting the helicopter's attitude (heading, pitch, bank, thus speed) like you would by retrimming / setting new AP parameters. It's like a trimmer but only for altitude, and this works even on non-collective-like joysticks (provided you have a spare button on it). 

 

You can also change heading only (without affecting the other parameters when the helicopter is nicely level) by briefly using rudder to turn to the new heading (against the autopilot, or turning just the Heading channel off), then turning it back on when the helicopter is pointing at the new, desired heading. This will set a new parameter to just the Heading channel, while the helicopter will slowly come back to the trimmed pitch, bank, and altitude (+ speed) at the new heading.

 

19 hours ago, Volk. said:

I am not super-familiar with FFB usage - simply am not fortunate enough to own one or fork out on a Brunner. But from your further description, it doesn't trim. I agree tapping trim in FD is still necessary for it to retain you stick position (though it slightly sucks at maintaining your AP channel parameters compared to hold trim once you let go of the stick), but surely it also relieves the force necessary to move the stick from it's trimmed position, otherwise you're fighting the hydraulics all the way, i.e. hold trim = FD while you're holding down the button. Once you release trim, it's trimmed and as stable as it can be (if you've settled on the flight path etc), but of course FD they stick might not have the same impetus to stay in position perhaps?

With a FFB stick, when you hold trimmer, the stick feels like it's moving freely (without springs) but dampened, like it's on molasses. Then you move it to the desired position (trim the aircraft) and release the trimmer button. The stick's center is now the point where you released the button at. The stick's "center" has changed position. If you try to move it now (even back to the actual center), there will be forces acting against your hand.

Just like the real aircraft.

 

With a FFB stick, regardless of trimming, when you turn on FD, the forces on your hand aren't relieved or cancelled. You're still going against hydraulics, but not the Autopilot's inputs. Your inputs are still dampened, but the "centering" forces you're going against aren't. Those aren't the autopilot, but they're there. You're show a line and symbology on your HUD related to FD mode, and use them to fly the helicopter according to the set parameters, like you were the autopilot.

 

This is as far as I remember it, since it's been a few years my FFB stick broke, and I've been using a standard one.

 

I miss it a lot. With a FFB there's absolutely no need for a controls indicator - you can just feel and see where the stick actually is, and act accordingly.

Because the centering changes, there is never any unexpected pitch and bank changes in the helicopter. But the stick can kick you back if you press TRIM RESET while not holding it firmly...

 

Since we're now (most of us) on joysticks with center springs, I support the addition of a controls indicator. 

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42 minutes ago, Sh4rk said:

The ALTitude hold does get a new altitude setting when you release trimmer or tap it

It doesn't. I've checked. Put on Altitude Hold at some consistent altitude, maybe in a hover with no wind. Move your collective so it powers out of that range. Trim while perfectly level. It will attempt to return to the aforementioned altitude. The only things setting the altitude hold channel's parameter/setting/target is (a) collective brake and (b) whenever the altitude hold channel button is put on, so you could also flick that off-on.

Altitude Holds effective authority "feels" like it's not very strong.

Note Collective brake itself, while held, doesn't disable the "resistance" that alt hold brings - if you don't want your collective deviations slowed down, then you need to disable Alt Hold. All it does in the sim is set the new alt hold parameter upon it's release.

 

45 minutes ago, Sh4rk said:

the collective brake is that you can set a new altitude without affecting the helicopter's attitude

I'm extracting a small part of your sentence here, but not entirely true. The collective brake's primary purpose arguably in the real Ka-50 is to release the collective so you can actually move it. Normally it has the brake on so accidental touch and shakes don't move it. Where the handle is placed you naturally clamp down this collective brake lever before moving the collective, so there it's natural. ED had to remove it so people without a custom-built stick could fly without serious hassle, always holding in an arbitrary button instead of just moving their collective stick/HOTAS throttle. The second this is does is it sets you new altitude hold AP channel's target altitude when it's released.

Whenever the collective is moved, if the change is radical enough it will affect especially your pitch as well. You just notice is less because of the pitch hold channel. Alt hold channel only affects you collective, pitch hold channel only your cyclic up-down.

 

Agreed turning ON heading hold channel sets a new heading hold target. It along with Altitude hold are the only 2 channels that set their parameters/targets when the button is turn on. Just Alt Hold itself isn't set by trimming, whereas Heading Hold

So often in Hover Mode: heading hold off, rudder over, heading hold on avoids any slight buck you'd get if you tried trimming without perfectly level.

 

55 minutes ago, Sh4rk said:

With a FFB stick, regardless of trimming, when you turn on FD, the forces on your hand aren't relieved or cancelled

huh...so then you were essentially flying with a stiffer stick?

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5 hours ago, Volk. said:

The collective brake's primary purpose arguably in the real Ka-50 is to release the collective so you can actually move it.

Yes, so the handle doesn't fall down on its own weight. It's common on all helos except in the Ka it has this small feature attached to the AP.

 

5 hours ago, Volk. said:

Whenever the collective is moved, if the change is radical enough it will affect especially your pitch as well. 

Always, even small changes in collective change pitch. Any increase in collective will make the heli pitch up and decrease will make it pitch down from level, constant speed flight (around +2.5º on the nose). The pitch AP will still try to come back to the set pitch at the same time the alt AP will be controlling the blades to hold altitude. The result is that the heli will slow down or speed up a bit, until the pitch AP catches up. 

5 hours ago, Volk. said:

huh...so then you were essentially flying with a stiffer stick?

I wouldn't say stiffer, it's just the "normal". As if you were using a stick with springs. Except the centering isn't in the "center", it's where you trimmed it to. Though my FFB does have enough force on its motors that it could overpower my wrist at times, but that's tuneable. 

 

I mean, that's FD on while you're not holding the trimmer. When you hold the trimmer button, regardless of FD, the stick becomes soft (but not 100% loose) until you release the button. Then you have "centering" forces on the stick again. It'll try to come back to the trimmed position.

 

In both cases, input dampening is always on if the corresponding AP channels are on. Now I don't fully remember if turning AP off would make the stick feel "dead" (100% loose) when the corresponding channels are off, but I think it did, at least when there was no AP because of hydraulics failures. Flying becomes a real challenge when you have to "center" the stick yourself 🚁

 

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 1/5/2021 at 12:53 AM, Volk. said:

Ok, lemme rephrase. I've done various tests of turning bank/rudder explicitly comparing FD vs Hold-Trim vs all AP Channels off vs channels on but not holding/tapping trim. Not holding trim made no discernable difference in the speed of the turn, nor reaction times to when the Black Shark starts moving. I'm not saying it shouldn't affect it, but in the sim it doesn't.

It can't just be the movement went over the authority limits of the AP channels (think it might be 20%, not 25%, but anyway), as then the timings would reflect that 25% resistance, but they don't. This is from tests about 4-ish months ago.

 

What I haven't tested is small minute adjustments to see if it fights one then, but definitely not on the larger movements.

Definitely it'll start 'fighting' you when you're trying to settle in on your new heading when you start easing up the controls and don't trim. I agree flying without trim is bad technique and I definitely don't recommend flying this way.

 

There's footage of Ka-50s where you can hear the clicking. I'm not sure it's exactly the same mechanics running in Mi Mil's stuff and Kamov at that time though.

 

I am not super-familiar with FFB usage - simply am not fortunate enough to own one or fork out on a Brunner. But from your further description, it doesn't trim. I agree tapping trim in FD is still necessary for it to retain you stick position (though it slightly sucks at maintaining your AP channel parameters compared to hold trim once you let go of the stick), but surely it also relieves the force necessary to move the stick from it's trimmed position, otherwise you're fighting the hydraulics all the way, i.e. hold trim = FD while you're holding down the button. Once you release trim, it's trimmed and as stable as it can be (if you've settled on the flight path etc), but of course FD they stick might not have the same impetus to stay in position perhaps?

 

 I´ve been AFK some time due to reasons. Anyways:

 

In the sim, the actual forces acting on the pilot aren´t modelled. For example, the collective can be pulled just as fast with the collective brake engaged, as without it. This is nonsense as IRL, the pilot, without holding the the collective brake in (which he normally would never do), would have to fight an immense force holding the collective in place, but could still move it by sheer force of muscle. IRL, there are differences greater than in the sim. Also, the reaction time is faster when you don´t have heading-hold or altitude-hold engaged. There is a difference there as well.

 

It´s 20% on cyclic and 25% on collective. Also, it works in a different way than you think. It does not remove 25% of your total scale, which the AP will always counter your movement with. Rather, when you win over the AP, it will standby and not fight you giving you 100% gain in the direction that you move the stick or collective. That´s why you don´t see bigger differences in reaction times.

 

Small adjustments, falling within 25% is something it will correct.

 

Kamov and Mil use the same type of trim. There really is no noticeable difference. We are talking about the way it works. Even western helicopters that have a click trimmer have it working this way. 

 

The reason click-trimming doesn´t work well with non-FFB sticks is because for every click you do, you would have to remember to center the stick, before clicking it again. Often you can hear the pilot holding the stick in a certain place, and clicking multiple times. That is for him to get the perfect centre for his current flight, as well as remove any type of errors in the trim (which always occur). If you tried to do the same, clicking multiple times without re-centering the stick for every click, then you are magnifying your trimmed input many times. It just isn´t natural, and doesn´t really work well. You need a FFB stick.

 

I´ve flown the Ka50 since it was released. I know her very well 😉 If you wonder about something, shoot. Otherwise, I see there are some issues further down the thread below your last response to me, but it`s too much to correct. Again, much is misunderstood by many.

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