Autopilot indication on controls indicator

[jonsky7]

As most people, I presume, and I fly with a non force feedback joystick which self centre, which I also know isn't the most realistic with regards to how helicopter cyclic trim works, I'd love to see some indication of where the autopilot is currently set a bit like in the Huey.

 

Also, if I understand correctly, the KA50 autopilot has a degree of limitation as to how far away from the current collective and cyclic stick positions it can control the helicopter. So it would also be great, I think, if those limits were also displayed so you could see if the autopilot is maxed out, something like a semi transparent circle for the cyclic, and a semi transparent bar for the collective. Your joystick and throttle would still be red diamond and red bar, and autopilot would be white.

 

Maybe if the circle moved when you selected a new trim position so its centre would indicate where the cyclic in the helicopter is at, and then if you saw that the white diamond was at the limit of the circle, you would know if the autopilot had reached its maximum control deflection.

The collective semi transparent bar would just move with the red marker, and if the white autopilot marker was at either end you would know that you have to move the your actual collective.

 

I don't think I've got it completely figured out yet, I just know that I seem to have massive pitch and roll movements when clicking the trim button.

 

What do you think?

Edited January 8, 2020 by jonsky7

[Holton181]

Sounds like a good idea. I'm with you.

[fudabidu]

"I seem to have massive pitch and roll movements when clicking the trim button." ... probably because you're just clicking the trim

 

HOLD DOWN trim - make your maneuver - stabilize the helicopter - release trim - center joystick ... NEVER just click the trim.

 

You'll have to manually fly the chopper while the trimmer is pressed. Get used to doing this a lot (practice manual flying in flight director mode without heading hold if desired)

Releasing the trim will send the current attitude to the AP which it is then trying to hold. If the helicopter is stable at this point the AP barely has to do anything.

 

I don't see how an AP indicator would help with any of that.

[Schlomo1933]

But Holding down the Trimm Button is Not realistic in the ka-50. because in this Moment the dampers are offline, so its too easy to overreact .

Edited January 17, 2020 by Schlomo1933

[Frederf]

That's not true, the dampers are active while trim button is held. What's missing is the micro switches in the stick to detect stick forces and not add full counter AP authority while the stick is being manipulated by the pilot.

 

So as you manipulate (without trim button) the stick in DCS e.g. pitching nose down the AP ramps up it's full pitch up input to its maximum value. Then when you press the trim button all of that AP pitch up input gets dumped back to neutral.

 

By tapping the trim button you are locking in a new desired attitude value and a neutral spring stick position. But that stick position that was acceptable before was the one which was the desired attitude when combined with saturated AP pitch up input which was a significantly more forward than the stick position associated with neutral AP input.

 

By holding the trim button you dump the AP input in all channels back to neutral and so your stick position that flies the helicopter as desired for several seconds is the correct one. Then when you release the trim button AP has to apply little to no input to maintain that captured attitude value.

[fudabidu]

Schlomo1933, please, don't spread wrong information.

Holding trim will disable pitch, roll and heading hold temporarily. The dampeners remain active.

 

Your problem is clicking the trimmer, so every time you trim again the autopilot will act weird.

It's been 10 years since BS1, there are dozens of Ka-50 tutorials just talking about trimming and pretty much every experienced DCS Ka-50 pilot will tell you the same. Why do people still insist on doing it wrong and then complain about the helicopter acting strange?

Want me to fly around and provide a track file to show I'm not crazy? I will do that if it means I can avoid having the same discussion for the 50th time.

 

... anyways:

One good learning tool is the Flight Director mode (button right of the AP channels)

 

It disables the AP, but you'll get 2 bars on the HUD indicating which attitude the AP would be holding normally. These bars will update when the trimmer is released, since that's when the attitude gets sent to the AP.

 

Practice trimming as described previously. As you release the trim you want the helicopter to be in stable flight and the bars should stay aligned with the aircraft datum in the HUD center. If you were to re-engage the autopilot now it would only have to do minor inputs to hold the set attitude. That's what you want to achieve.

FD mode also feels very similar to flying with the trimmer held down, so you'll get a lot of practice flying the helicopter manually. Just practice flying like this for a few hours and it should become second nature quickly.

 

I'd also recommend setting altitude hold to baro, since terrain following can lead to changes in pitch as the helicopter changes altitude constantly.

 

An AP indicator is probably far towards the end of ED's priority list (if it's planned at all) and FD bars are the only other visual indication I can think off. Hope it helps with getting a feel for the Ka-50.

Edited January 18, 2020 by fudabidu

[jonsky7]

So I've recently purchased the Mi8, which has the separate controls and autopilot indicator.

 

If I could get that to work on the Ka-50 that would be good enough for me.

 

I tried just copying the Mi8's ControlsIndicator_page.lua to the KA-50 but alas, although it did show up it wasn't showing the autopilots controls.

Then I realised obviously it won't because in the Mi8 it's just repeating the panel in the centre console.

 

I certainly have no idea how to implement it. I would like it though.

[fudabidu]

With full autopilot support the helicopter will hold whatever attitude you set it to (when trimmed properly, which isn't hard at all). If the helicopter deviates the AP has reached its authority limit and you'll need to refine your trim. That's all the indication you'll ever need in regards to the autopilot.

It's been almost a year now and if you're still struggling with trimming I'd suggest an online training session with a seasoned Ka-50 pilot. It's gonna be more valuable than some cryptic indications that don't actually provide any useful information.

Edited December 4, 2020 by fudabidu

[Schlomo1933]

So when we will get those microswitches simulated ? Cant be so hard to programm it,that the AP is Switch off when the Stick is moved out of center. 

 

And Holding the trimbutton pressed, IS unrealistic !

Edited December 4, 2020 by Schlomo1933

[Scofflaw]

I'm not suggesting this as a realistic solution, but I got an elgato stream deck, and programmed the auto pilot buttons with on/off indications.  It has made flying much easier for me, but again, not a solution for everyone.

[fudabidu]

On 12/4/2020 at 5:10 AM, Schlomo1933 said:

So when we will get those microswitches simulated ? Cant be so hard to programm it,that the AP is Switch off when the Stick is moved out of center. 

 

And Holding the trimbutton pressed, IS unrealistic !

Can you provide documentation about the Ka-50 that supports your claim? What would the proper trimming procedure look like? If it's such a big issue, where is your forum post about it?

[Schlomo1933]

It was written in the original documentation from the DCS Blackshark. That tap trimming is the Common way to fly the ka-50. Holding down this Button is not supposed. 

 

The Autopilot is Designed to help. Not to make , to Fight against you. 

I m realy good at flying this helo, but i dont like it, that i have to do it in an unrealistic way.

And you will tell me now, that you read the whole forum to ask me now where my forum post is? Really? 

[fudabidu]

All the relevant results for the search term "trim" in the manual:

"“ТРИММЕР” (Trimmer) button – Cancels all force on cyclic with the trimming mechanisms. When released, the autopilot will stabilize current angles of pitch, bank and yaw [T]2"
"Pressing the “ТРИММЕР” (TRIM) button on the cyclic stick cancels the autopilot’s position signals for bank (K), pitch (T) and yaw (H) and releasing it places the angular position of the helicopter in 3D space in memory"
"To set a new airspeed and altitude, it is necessary to press and hold the trim button and change the speed and altitude. Then release the trim button and the current values of the airspeed and altitude are set as desired"
"For changing flight parameters it is necessary to:
1. Press and hold the Trimmer on the cyclic stick.
2. Set new flight input (bearing, pitch and speed).
3. Release the Trimmer button."

But I'm not supposed to hold the trimmer. Got it!

[Schlomo1933]

That is the new manual. I told you about the original manual. 

 

In this Video you can hear that the trimbutton is tapped. 

 

 

[fudabidu]

I found the original English manual from 2008 and I got pretty much the same results. It does not mention tapping the trimmer anywhere!
Please, read it again and tell me where it's supposed to say that.

[Schlomo1933]

Im sorry, i mean the tutorial from eagle dynamics:

Especialy After 5th Minute : that its Not meaned to hold down the trimmerbutton

After BS2 there were  changing some things wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

and you can clearly hear, in this reallive footage he is tabbing the trimmer and you dont see any overreaction from the autopilot. 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2020 by Schlomo1933

[Ranma13]

In the real helicopter and with FFB joysticks, you want to tap the trimmer because holding it down will remove the centering force on the stick, making it flop around. With a spring-based joystick and the Default and Central Position Trimmer Mode in the Ka-50's special options, due to the way they work you want to hold down the trimmer while maneuvering, then release when you're done.

 

If you want to see what the difference is, change the trimmer mode in the special options to Joystick Without Springs and FFB, then maneuver around while rapidly tapping the trimmer. You should be able to control the helicopter no problem. Then try it again with the Default and Central Position modes. You will quickly lose control.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Ranma13

[Sh4rk]

I used to fly with FFB before my FFB stick broke.

 

Holding the trimmer will... well, trim the stick, It'll physically change the center of the stick, the position it'll stay on after you release it, to the point where it is when you release the trimmer button.  

 

Tapping will just send new desired bank, pitch and heading info to the autopilot. Which it also does when using a non-FFB stick.

 

That's how you fly the thing. First you trim it, then you work with the autopilot. Repeatedly tapping the trimmer button is not the way you should be doing it.

 

Using the center mode for non FFB sticks, it works "incrementally". When you release the trimmer button, and release your physical stick, your stick is centered, but the virtual stick is deflected (trimmed). If you hold the trimmer again and input a little more bank and/or pitch, then release, your input is added to the previous (virtual) stick deflection. And so on. When you eventually reset the trimmer, you get a yank back to centre (and possibly a few rotor blades chopped) if you're not already deflecting your physical stick to match the virtual one.

 

With a little (or a lot) of practice,  you learn to "recenter" the trim by giving it the opposite inputs you've given before. And you learn to counteract the yank from resetting the trim in an emergency. 

 

But oh boy, I do miss FFB. A lot.

[Schlomo1933]

@Ranma13@Sh4rk

 

I know how the trimm is working in DCS and i have no Problem to fly and trimm. But it is not realistic how it works in DCS. that is my point. 

[Sh4rk]

WIthout FFB, you are right, it isn't realistic. With FFB, it is - because that's how the real helo works.

 

Still, in DCS and even without a FFB stick, holding the trimmer is the way to do it. And there are countless tutorials out there explaining how and why.

I used to tap he trimmer, but that was before I undestood how the trimmer and autopilot work and what to expect. 

 

I should add that the OP's request is still valid, even though I don't use the controls indicator. It could be helpful in some situations.

Edited December 17, 2020 by Sh4rk
Back on topic

[Schlomo1933]

U dont understand me shark.... holding down the trimmer works fine for me. but in the real shark it is not realistic. there is no overreaction from the autopilot. in the cyclicstick ar 2 sensors installed. they will switch autopilot in standby  when the stick is pushed away from the trimmed possition (till the stick is centered again). 

 

have u watched the 2 videos ?

Edited December 17, 2020 by Schlomo1933

[Taz1004]

Not only unrealistic, I don't use holding the trim button because it's inefficient... for my setup at least.  As long as I'm holding it down and maneuvering, my thumb is occupied and I can't use any button that needs my thumb on the cyclic.  HAT switch to switch weapons, turn on HMS, or activate cannon.

[Canemista]

@ OP - that would be helpful in some cases... especially when you "run out of trim" and want to reset it without ripping of rotor

 

 

@Schlomo1933 - to have the AP in "realistic mode" I'd say you get a FFB stick and you'll get what you need to have a more realistic feel in cockpit otherwise with self centre joystick you got what you get and no helo sim will ever be realistic

 

@Taz1004 - try to bind somewhere a "director control" - in cruise or hover I trim the AP (by holding trim button to keep the computer do it's job so I can focus on ie. navigation), in combat manoeuvres I fly with "director" OFF, that way you can use the stick and trim like any other DCS helo. keep in mind that this overwrites any set heading, alt, bank, pitch modes into "stand by" 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Canemista
grammar

[Taz1004]

1 hour ago, Canemista said:

 

@Taz1004 - try to bind somewhere a "director control" - in cruise or hover I trim the AP (by holding trim button to keep the computer do it's job so I can focus on ie. navigation), in combat manoeuvres I fly with "director" OFF, that way you can use the stick and trim like any other DCS helo. keep in mind that this overwrites any set heading, alt, bank, pitch modes into "stand by" 

 

 

Thanks but maybe you didn't read all the posts.  I wasn't really looking for advice.  I always maneuver with Flight Director "ON".

"OFF" is full auto pilot.

I was simply giving my reason why I don't fly with trim held down.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Taz1004

[Schlomo1933]

Am 18.12.2020 um 08:53 schrieb Canemista:

 

@Schlomo1933 - to have the AP in "realistic mode" I'd say you get a FFB stick and you'll get what you need to have a more realistic feel in cockpit otherwise with self centre joystick you got what you get and no helo sim will ever be realistic

 

 

but it cant be so hard , to programm the autopilot like in the real Ka-50. when stick is moved out of trimmed center position that the autopilot is on standby. like in the real ka-50.