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1.16 Rule discussion


NineLine
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Dear all,

We are trying to continually review and adapt all our rules to best serve the community, one that has been very tough has been 1.16, and the sharing of documents related to aircraft, sensors and weapons. As such we have made the following change in order to allow a little more freedom:

 

1.16. Posting of images, file links, file sharing links, and copying and pasting information is prohibited if the source document is from a classified or ITAR controlled source. When posting aircraft, sensor or weapon information more recent than 1980, you must also include the source of the document showing that it is 100% public and verified as not from a classified or non-ITAR controlled source. To not do so will result in the removal of the message. Posting information from a classified or ITAR-controlled source will result in the message being removed and a 20% warning and one-week suspension (dependent on warning level).

 

We realize there are a number of documents out there that people can share and reference freely, and now would like to be able to give people the chance to do so. You will still be required to post the link to the legally shared document as stated in the rule, but we hope this will afford our users some more freedom when posting about issues and concerns with DCS Modules.

 

Feel free to ask any questions about this rule, if you have concerns about past moderation of this rule, please PM me or someone else on the moderation team in private.

 

Thanks!

The ED Team


Edited by NineLine

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Assume one was to share information from a manual newer than 1980 and marked with a Distribution Statement A, would that still be a violation of rule 1.16?

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  • 1 month later...
I'd like to understand exactly why this rule is necessary

 

 

Ask this the other way: why do you need to share here, a classified document or portion of it?

 

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Because we like the world of aeronautical simulation? Anyway i asked because i was curious about the consequences...

 

Because not everything on the internet is legal to share, and sharing illegal things on this forum puts all of us at risk. We are doing our best to filter out those documents so no one here will run into any trouble with any government or agency.

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I had basically made that point before with regards to distribution statement A back when 1.16 first came out @al531246

 

In any case thank you Ed for making the decision for revising the rule.

 

 

 

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Ask this the other way: why do you need to share here, a classified document or portion of it?

 

to clarify the "distribution restricted stuff" technically isn't classified, although admitelly anything above level A probably shouldn't be shared willy nilly ( or sold). In short its about how you go about acquiring it.

 

Anything that was legitimately classified, requiring an actual government issued security clearance ( IE Confidential, Secret, or Top Secret) are actually tightly safe kept secrets and are actually strictly enforced under espionage laws with vastly more serious repercussions. No one is getting thier hands on classified material unless you get a whistle blower put it on Wikileaks or something. Either that or an actual declassification occurs and becomes public.

 

The distribution restrictions Beyond A grade, are simply part of ITAR regulations . Meaning it is actually possible to legally obtain them as a civilian without any security clearance( in some cases even export them) if your willing to go through the bureaucratic red tape, to be 100% legal. Although as we can see from online, those red tape regulations are about as much respected as anti piracy laws for redistributing or selling DVD's, and about as efficiently enforced. ( not that i am encouraging of breaking the forum rules or in IRL, but im just pointing out purely from observation )

 

How else do you think ED or 3rd parties which are outside of the USA would develop an aircraft without even getting their hand on a basic flight manual which is a foundation block for the research needed for making an aircraft? ( never minding more advanced stuff like avionics or weapons operation) .


Edited by Kev2go

 

 

 

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I had basically made that point before with regards to distribution statement A back when 1.16 first came out @al531246

 

In any case thank you Ed for making the decision for revising the rule.

 

Yeah, and we continue to monitor, we want as much freedom without upsetting anyone.

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Because not everything on the internet is legal to share, and sharing illegal things on this forum puts all of us at risk. We are doing our best to filter out those documents so no one here will run into any trouble with any government or agency.

Thx this makes things easier

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So can i post research papers. From universities?

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I'd like to understand exactly why this rule is necessary

Because there was some messy business back in 2018/early 2019 involving a US based forum member, a Russian ED employee, and some alleged ITAR violations. If you have halfway decent google abilities you can read all about it, including court filings and the like. It was big enough to make international news.

To cut out all the dancing around, obfuscation and corporate speak, that incident is literally the reason 1.16 became what it is.


Edited by Commodore
fact check.
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Is it possible you could post an example to follow? i.e. a manual with all the required sources & clearances etc.

 

Most unrestricted documents will have a comment/footnote somewhere in the forward/introduction specifically mentioning they have been declassified or made available to the public.

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Also to be clear, are you allowed to mention a specific manual now? That is without linking to or providing any content of it here.

 

Most unrestricted documents will have a comment/footnote somewhere in the forward/introduction specifically mentioning they have been declassified or made available to the public.

 

Most (if any) of the manuals I have don't have any of that, but I'm damn confident they're declassified :P


Edited by Hummingbird
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Also to be clear, are you allowed to mention a specific manual now? That is without linking to or providing any content of it here.

 

 

 

Most (if any) of the manuals I have don't have any of that, but I'm damn confident they're declassified :P

 

If you can post a link where you got them, where a government agency was freely sharing them, then you are good... but your confidence will not prove anything.

 

If you downloaded them from joe blows file sharing server, then you should probably not post them.

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Also to be clear, are you allowed to mention a specific manual now? That is without linking to or providing any content of it here.

 

 

 

Most (if any) of the manuals I have don't have any of that, but I'm damn confident they're declassified :P

 

Yeah, same here, but I have seen it in some of them, can't remember which it was, though. I looked for it in the Harrier manual and couldn't find it, but was hardly an exhaustive search.

 

The biggest issue isn't ''classification'' persay, though. 99% of this stuff is ''declassified''. The ISSUE is when you transfer it to a non-citizen or post it on the web (effectively crossing state borders) then it's an export violation, as it is military docs and you aren't authorised to distribute. That's what got the ED guy in trouble. Nobody cared about the docs so much, it was the international aspect that was illegal.

 

People always talk about classification. That's NOT that big a deal, as you can negotiate for access potentially. It's the exporting of that information that's the issue as NONE of us are authorised to do so.

 

I also don't see why people feel it's necessary to post anyway, to score internet points with forum users who have no influence on the game? You need to show something sensitive to correct an inaccuracy, you send it to one of the devs/mods and they'll decide what to do. The ''community opinion'' is irrelevant. THEY aren't writing the code, so THEY don't need to see it in the first place. File reports with the devs if docs are involved, problem solved. If randos are arguing their usual bs on the forum about this or that's op/broken/wtf ever, who cares?


Edited by zhukov032186
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Also to be clear, are you allowed to mention a specific manual now? That is without linking to or providing any content of it here.

 

 

 

Most (if any) of the manuals I have don't have any of that, but I'm damn confident they're declassified :P

 

 

Unfortunately being declassified is not always enough. I can buy a cheap rifle scope at the local big box and give it to anyone I want in the US, but if it crosses an international boundary I've just violated ITAR (International Trade in Arms Regulations) and can go to jail for some indeterminate amount of time. Heck, I think there are binoculars still under ITAR; like any other government list it gets updated at the speed of glaciers.

 

 

SWMBO deals with this all the time, and there are things you would never image as regulated that can cause ED all kinds of headaches. Since they really don't want to hire a trade compliance expert to adjudicate every post they write a rule that should, one hopes, keep them out of trouble. Mostly. Assuming everyone plays nice and recognizes this is an international forum and everything we do is exported.

 

 

I know, silly assumption.

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