Ambiguous contacts on radar

[Harker]

This question is mostly aimed at the devs. I wanted to ask if we'll get unknown and ambiguous HAFU symbols in the Viper, requiring some form of target verification, like in the Hornet.

Thanks for the hard work so far btw, looking great!

[Santi871]

I would assume we will get at least unknown. There's no ambiguous symbol for the viper.

 

Have in mind you can't change the symbol of a track in the viper, it will just display what it gets out of the network, and contribute unknowns with its own radar - although maybe there's some obscure way of changing them that I'm not aware of (maybe with NCTR?). AFAIK this is also why there's no ambiguous symbol.

[KlarSnow]

Air force jets don't really subscribe to the HAFU/NTIDS symbology that the navy uses. Altho some elements are similar on the datalink (red/pointy = hostile track, yellow/square=unknown, green/blue/round = friend), the radar display does not integrate that into how it shows its contacts. F-15/16's don't run ROE and IFF the same way the hornet does, and the radar display will not change the entire track to a hostile track.

[Harker]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, if the target has been ID'd by a contributor, it will automatically appear as hostile or friendly, because that's the network info. Leaving unknown targets just for cases when you are without Link 16 support. Or requiring at least an IFF scan with Link 16 support, since NCTR wasn't mentioned in the video. The above assume that the ROE matrix logic in the Viper is the same/similar as in the Hornet.

 

EDIT: I was writing my reply as KlarSnow posted his. So, as long as a contact is identified as hostile in the network, there are no further steps to be taken by you?

Edited November 25, 2019 by Harker

[Santi871]

So, as long as a contact is identified as hostile in the network, there are no further steps to be taken by you?

 

It's still up to you to IFF and do whatever you need to verify it's actually hostile, same as you would in the hornet. Granted, in the more or less flawless world that DCS is, if you lock a hostile in DL, it will actually be hostile (barring you locking the wrong target).

[KlarSnow]

Let me put it another way, the ONLY contributor to making the actual track go "hostile" (which should only appear on the HSD/datalink track, not a radar track) is offboard datalink data, IE from AWACS or if an F-18 labelled it hostile. All you will ever see on the radar display for onboard data is a white neutral contact, which you then correlate with the hostile track from data link if you have it, and a lack of IFF returns when you run it in your own ship, it will NEVER on the HUD or the A/A radar display change the way the radar track looks. It should always appear "neutral" you correlate all of this data on your own in your head, jet doesnt do it for you.

 

So for example, if your wingman gets a NCTR ID, there is no way for him to populate that accross the link to you, he would just have to say over the radio that he has ID met on the target. And in your own jet if you get a NCTR hit, and it ID's the target as SU-27 or Mig-29 (assuming they add NCTR to the F-16 at some point) it will never make the track you are looking at on the radar go "hostile" like it does in the hornet. You correlate all of that in your head and then shoot the track.

Edited November 25, 2019 by KlarSnow

[Harker]

Thanks for the detailed explanations, guys. I knew that the F-16 doesn't doesn't change the TD box on the HUD, but I thought that the FCR did use different icons, based on datalink and IFF. Maybe that's not correct or at least correct for our version.

My follow-up question (I know it's a lot, but maybe it'll be useful to others as well) is whether detected targets can be shared between aircraft without the presence of an AWACS. Or just the engaged target, via lock lines and shoot lines? Can a lone flight of F-16s share detected target info between them and build SA for each other on the HSD?

[Santi871]

Thanks for the detailed explanations, guys. I knew that the F-16 doesn't doesn't change the TD box on the HUD, but I thought that the FCR did use different icons, based on datalink and IFF. Maybe that's not correct or at least correct for our version.

My follow-up question (I know it's a lot, but maybe it'll be useful to others as well) is whether detected targets can be shared between aircraft without the presence of an AWACS. Or just the engaged target, via lock lines and shoot lines? Can a lone flight of F-16s share detected target info between them and build SA for each other on the HSD?

 

Yes, link16 works like you are normally used to from the Hornet. You just won't be attaching IFF info to tracks, or changing their classification (ie unknowns will stay unknowns). Like you can see in Wags' video, once your radar finds and correlates the track, it will go back to the usual white square symbology on the radar, and it only stays red (if it was hostile) on the HSD.

[KlarSnow]

And yes specifically you should be able to share contacts without an AWACS around, just like the hornet can

[QuiGon]

All you will ever see on the radar display for onboard data is a white neutral contact, which you then correlate with the hostile track from data link if you have it, and a lack of IFF returns when you run it in your own ship, it will NEVER on the HUD or the A/A radar display change the way the radar track looks. It should always appear "neutral" you correlate all of this data on your own in your head, jet doesnt do it for you.

Uhm, on Wags DL video for the F-16 the FCR display does show DL tracks with IFF symbology :huh:

[backspace340]

Uhm, on Wags DL video for the F-16 the FCR display does show DL tracks with IFF symbology :huh:

 

Only when the radar didn't have a track - once the radar picked them up, they changed to neutral white squares again.

 

That's what Wags is demonstrating at roughly 4:10 here:

Edited November 25, 2019 by backspace340

[KlarSnow]

All you will ever see on the radar display for onboard data is a white neutral contact

 

Bolded the second part of my statement from before. Onboard means your radar has detected the target, thus you can lock it and shoot it with a missile. Offboard is everything else that is coming purely through the datalink.

[QuiGon]

Bolded the second part of my statement from before. Onboard means your radar has detected the target, thus you can lock it and shoot it with a missile. Offboard is everything else that is coming purely through the datalink.

Gotcha :thumbup:

 

 

Only when the radar didn't have a track - once the radar picked them up, they changed to neutral white squares again.

That's why I wrote "DL track" instead of radar track as I didn't notice that KlarSnow was already referring to onboard data only.

Edited November 25, 2019 by QuiGon

[DefaultFace]

In the Viper Updates thread theres a photo of the radar screen with hollow white triangles in TWS mode... Didnt see those in the DL video...? Anybody familiar with those? Triangle would indicate hostile but they were white not red?

 

Some sort of more in depth info on the HAFU/IFF/Datalink symbology would be cool. Seems to be different to the Datalink Symbology in the other Viper Sim.....

[Rainmaker]

Probably worth noting at least, there is the ability for the ownship radar scope show correlated and non-correlated “friendly” contacts and label appropriately, just not do the same to label a hostile. Just to clear up possibly confusion that may happen.

[Rainmaker]

In the Viper Updates thread theres a photo of the radar screen with hollow white triangles in TWS mode... Didnt see those in the DL video...? Anybody familiar with those? Triangle would indicate hostile but they were white not red?

 

Some sort of more in depth info on the HAFU/IFF/Datalink symbology would be cool. Seems to be different to the Datalink Symbology in the other Viper Sim.....

 

Triangle does not indicate hostile. Triangle indicates a tracked target, not a hostile.

 

Different jet, different symbology, you can’t necessarily associate the two.

 

Also, other sim does not possess DL...so don’t necessarily make those associations either.

[DefaultFace]

The other sim does have datalink........ Its possible its an older model or a simplified implementation but it is in there.

 

Wags mentioned in the video that the Triangle shape was associated with hostile targets (although the way it was said it could have been just for the red ones, like I said it would be nice to have more clarity).

 

Not really sure what you mean by tracked either. In the TWS video the radar shows "Track Files" as Filled in white squares, and when you designate them with the Cursor you get System files which are hollow white squares. Then if you bug them you get a circle around it.

[Rainmaker]

The other sim does have datalink........ Its possible its an older model or a simplified implementation but it is in there.

 

Wags mentioned in the video that the Triangle shape was associated with hostile targets (although the way it was said it could have been just for the red ones, like I said it would be nice to have more clarity).

 

Not really sure what you mean by tracked either. In the TWS video the radar shows "Track Files" as Filled in white squares, and when you designate them with the Cursor you get System files which are hollow white squares. Then if you bug them you get a circle around it.

 

Sorry, yes, I should have worded that better. There is small-scale datalink with flight members creating their own host network. It is missing Link16 “big network” capability that would normally include your AWACS and other C2 nodes and the rest of the coalition (that either talk the same 0s and 1s or can be bridged).

 

Again, the white triangles are just a form of target symbology, they are not meant to identify friend, foe, etc.

[DefaultFace]

I mean im not saying you're wrong but I still don't understand why or in what case the contacts become a triangle instead of a square like they are in the video.

[Harker]

I mean im not saying you're wrong but I still don't understand why or in what case the contacts become a triangle instead of a square like they are in the video.

I'm guessing you're referring to this https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4077486&postcount=28.

 

If you look at the second pic, the two contacts on the right return a positive IFF reply, so they're friendly, yet they're still marked as triangles. So the onboard trackfile symbol doesn't mean anything with respect to friend/foe. I think the dev team changed the trackfile symbol from a square to a triangle last week for some reason and they changed it back to a square now, that's all.

[Rainmaker]

I mean im not saying you're wrong but I still don't understand why or in what case the contacts become a triangle instead of a square like they are in the video.

 

As above, when the contract becomes a “target” of the radar.

[DefaultFace]

As above, when the contract becomes a “target” of the radar.

I understand what you're saying, but thats not consistent with the behaviour in the TWS video.

 

 

I'm guessing you're referring to this https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4077486&postcount=28.

 

If you look at the second pic, the two contacts on the right return a positive IFF reply, so they're friendly, yet they're still marked as triangles. So the onboard trackfile symbol doesn't mean anything with respect to friend/foe. I think the dev team changed the trackfile symbol from a square to a triangle last week for some reason and they changed it back to a square now, that's all.

 

Yeah thats the photo I meant. Maybe you're right and it was just a WIP thing for some reason. I guess we'll have to play around with it when the patch comes.

[Rainmaker]

I mean im not saying you're wrong but I still don't understand why or in what case the contacts become a triangle instead of a square like they are in the video.

 

I think I got ya now. i went back and looked at everything all over again. Based on where I think you’re coming from and what you are looking at, my guess would be that you should ignore the screenshots and go with the video. Just a guess here, but I presume they made symbology changes between the first screenshots that Wags took and what’s being released. From the looks of it, you shouldn’t see the conversion to triangles anymore. I would guess they were goven updates info on the correct symbology during testing so it was changed.

[KlarSnow]

The datalink in the "other" sim is representing IDM a completely different architecture and type of network. Its symbology/standards/how it works and shows data are completely different and have no real bearing on what happens with Link 16/MIDS. They are not related in any way.

[DefaultFace]

The datalink in the "other" sim is representing IDM a completely different architecture and type of network. Its symbology/standards/how it works and shows data are completely different and have no real bearing on what happens with Link 16/MIDS. They are not related in any way.

 

Thanks :D

 

I spoke with a friend who knows a bit about F-16s he said that originally it was a software difference between US F-16s and Foreign sold ones for the Triangle vs Squares in the Radar screen. Guess they were just testing it out. Also confirmed that as you guys say it has nothing to do with friendly or enemy or any sort of datalink symbology.