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HARM targeting pod


kalas1988
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Hello,

 

after reading the book: Magnum:Wild weasel in desert storm , I recommend reading one! I wanted to ask experts here, how does F-18 acquire a "Lock" on the SAM radar, F-16 has a dedicated targeting pod , what about f-18?

 

Regards

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The F/A-18 doesn't. It entirely relies on the HARMs own seeker. The EA-18 on the other hand has a built in Emitter Location System, similar to the F-4G. The USN did some testing with a so called Targeting Avionic System (TAS) pod in the late 90s, which was similar to the HTS pod, but AFAIK the TAS program got cancelled eventually. The Navy now has the Growler to do the job.

 

Edit: Well, the F/A-18 can also use its RWR to designate targets for the HARM, despite using the HARMs own sensor, but this comes nowhere close to the capabilities of the HTS pod or the integraterd systems of the F-4G and EA-18G.

 

Edit 2: Besides the above mentioned book (which is a great read indeed!) I can also recommend this article for a more technical analysis of the electronic battle during Dessert Storm: https://www.ausairpower.net/Analysis-ODS-EW.html

The F/A-18 installation uses target information from the HARM's nose mounted seeker and the aircraft's omni-directional ALR-67 warning receiver, the pilot is provided with a list of targets in descending order of priority displayed on one of the cockpit CRTs, targets are selected with a throttle mounted switch which sequences through the list. The ALR-67 combines both crystal video and superhet receiver hardware and complements the coverage of the HARM, it is however a very basic system in comparison with specialised homing receiver installations such as the USAF APR-38/47 in the F-4G. As such the composite installation provides omnidirectional coverage with low directional accuracy, and forward sector coverage with high directional accuracy due the seeker of the HARM.

Edited by QuiGon

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DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

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The F/A-18 doesn't. It entirely relies on the HARMs own seeker. The EA-18 on the other hand has a built in Emitter Location System, similar to the F-4G. The USN did some testing with a so called Targeting Avionic System (TAS) pod in the late 90s, which was similar to the HTS pod, but AFAIK the TAS program got cancelled eventually. The Navy now has the Growler to do the job.

 

Edit: Well, the F/A-18 can also use its RWR to designate targets for the HARM, despite using the HARMs own sensor, but this comes nowhere close to the capabilities of the HTS pod or the integraterd systems of the F-4G and EA-18G.

 

Edit 2: Besides the above mentioned book (which is a great read indeed!) I can also recommend this article for a more technical analysis of the electronic battle during Dessert Storm: https://www.ausairpower.net/Analysis-ODS-EW.html

 

Wow, you really rock mister! Thank you for the explanation. Now I get the "big picture" , the POD itself must be some kind of ELINT pod , like all the built in stuff on the wild weasel.

 

Thank you for the EW battle URL will check it.

 

Regards,

 

Jan

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Fun fact: Since March of this year there are only 4 services left within NATO that have dedicated SEAD platforms. Anyone knows who they are? ;)


Edited by QuiGon

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DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

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Hornet can also shoot HARM on targets coordinates with PB mode (Pre Briefed).:smilewink:

It’s kind of Lock On After Launch.

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Hornet can also shoot HARM on targets coordinates with PB mode (Pre Briefed).:smilewink:

It’s kind of Lock On After Launch.

Indeed, but in this case the missiles locks the target entirely on its own after it has already left the aircraft, as you already said. The aircraft is not involved in the locking procedure in any way.

Intel i7-4790K @ 4x4GHz + 16 GB DDR3 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit

 

DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

Tornado3 small.jpg

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Fun fact: Since March of this year there are only 4 services left within NATO that have dedicated SEAD platforms. Anyone knows who they are? ;)

 

Maybe Tornado with ALARM is one of them, does ALARM work in the same way as HARM? And also one more and last question :) how come do the SEAD strike packages also carry Mavericks? Can the MAV be launched also in some kind of passive mode?

 

Rgrds

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Maybe Tornado with ALARM is one of them, does ALARM work in the same way as HARM?

Close, but not quiet. The 4 NATO services with dedicated SEAD platforms nowadays are the USAF (F-16CJ), USN (EA-18G Growler), Germany (Tornado ECR) and Italy (Tornado ECR). The Tornado ECR (Electronic Combat Reconnaisance) is a specialized variant of the Tornado that has only ever been used by the German and Italian air forces. It has an internal emitter location system, similar to the F-4G Wild Weasel, and it also employs the AGM-88 HARM. The ALARM has been used on british Tornados, but they lacked specialized emitter location systems, just like the F/A-18 Hornet.

 

 

And also one more and last question :) how come do the SEAD strike packages also carry Mavericks? Can the MAV be launched also in some kind of passive mode?

Just like the HARM, all MAVs are passive in the sense of not emitting any signals. But unlike the HARM, the MAV is using optical guidance. This makes it a great secondary armament for SEAD flights, because it can target SAMs that are currently not emitting any radar energy. Besides the HARM and the MAV it is also pretty common for US SEAD platforms to carry cluster bombs to finish off SAM sites after their radars got destroyed by HARMs.

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DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

Tornado3 small.jpg

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Indeed, but in this case the missiles locks the target entirely on its own after it has already left the aircraft, as you already said. The aircraft is not involved in the locking procedure in any way.

Italy is one because it uses the AGM-88E on its Tornado IDS. Germany, Greece and Spain. ALARM is only qualified on Tornados, which were withdrawn in April this year.


Edited by Emu
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Italy also flies the ECR, which carries the AGM-88E as well as far as I know. The 155th squadron flies a mix of IDS and ECR.

Italy is one because it uses the AGM-88E on its Tornado IDS. Germany, Greece and Spain. ALARM is only qualified on Tornados, which were withdrawn in April this year.

I'm well aware of Italian ECRs, which is why I already listed the Italian Air Force as one of the 4 remaining services within NATO with dedicated SEAD platforms. ;)

Spain and Greece don't have dedicated SEAD platforms to the best of my knowledge (or is Greece using the HTS?).

Intel i7-4790K @ 4x4GHz + 16 GB DDR3 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit

 

DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

Tornado3 small.jpg

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I'm well aware of Italian ECRs, which is why I already listed the Italian Air Force as one of the 4 remaining services within NATO with dedicated SEAD platforms. ;)

Spain and Greece don't have dedicated SEAD platforms to the best of my knowledge (or is Greece using the HTS?).

All the ones mentioned are operating AGM-88s according to wiki.

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All the ones mentioned are operating AGM-88s according to wiki.

Yes, but that doesn't make a dedicated SEAD platform like the F-4G Wild Weasel or the EA-18G Growler or the F-16 CJ with HTS pod or the Tornado ECR. These aircraft have special electronic systems (so called Emitter Location Systems) that allow them to detect, classify and locate various emitters very precisely and can employ the HARM in a special mode that other aircraft can't.

Intel i7-4790K @ 4x4GHz + 16 GB DDR3 RAM + Nvidia Geforce RTX 2080 (8 GB VRAM) + M.2 SSD + Windows 10 64Bit

 

DCS Panavia Tornado (IDS) really needs to be a thing!

 

Tornado3 small.jpg

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I would imagine that a combination of signal strength processing and triangulation is used in order to provide reasonably approximate range data for a given emitter, thus allowing the HARM to be launched within a higher Pk threshold.

 

Or at least I'd hope so, given that is what is currently the only weakness of the HARM/Hornet combo. Though, I have to say, using the TDS box in TOO mode plus a little trigonometry can help!

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  • 6 months later...
Fun fact: Since March of this year there are only 4 services left within NATO that have dedicated SEAD platforms. Anyone knows who they are? ;)

 

Close, but not quiet. The 4 NATO services with dedicated SEAD platforms nowadays are the USAF (F-16CJ), .

 

Talking about trivia:

CJ is not an F-16 designation, it is a Technical Order (T.O.) designation. I tried to explain that here

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3745350&postcount=164

and here

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3798164&postcount=351

and here

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3370270&postcount=428

 

Consequently:

For the USAF dedicated SEAD/DEAD units will be ones equip with F-16C block 40/50/52 with that mission. Note no block 42, only two unit that I'm aware can deploy to combat with block 42 is Toledo ANG, 180th Fighter Wing (FW), 112th Fighter Squadron (FS) and the 138th FW, 125th FS. Both are unique using block 42 with F100-PW-229. But neither is used for the SEAD/DEAD mission AFAIK.

 

I digress,

So for the USAF, it would be OSAN AB 51st FW, 36th FS block 40. Kunsan AB 8th FW, 80th FS block 40 have been seen with HTR pods in training. Misawa AB 35th FW, 13th and 14th FS block 50. Shaw AFB 20th FW, 55th, 77th, and 79th FS block 50. Spangdahlem AB 52FW, 480th FS block 50.

 

For the Air National Guard: there is 148th FW, 179th FS block 50 and the 169th FW, 159th FS block 52.

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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