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If Huey miniguns couldn't kill BMPs and such, then fine, they shouldn't in DCS, and mission designers can take that into account when creating a Huey mission, or modify existing missions that have the Huey up against armor that it shouldn't be able to kill (e.g., change the enemy unit to something softer, add in some AI bombers, whatever).

 

But I am wondering whether the change they made to the AI earlier - where as I recall they said that the gunners will no longer try to fire though buildings and such - may be slightly overdone when it comes to troops in forest cover.

 

I fly several MP scenarios where the enemy is just troops, but we've found that since that change, if the enemy troops are in a forested area, the gunners hold fire. And, they hold fire even though the enemy is well within range, and is firing on the helicopter (and sometimes killing crew members).

 

The gunners apparently see the enemy because you can watch them aim their guns and move that aim as you fly by the target - but they don't fire as they did before. I'm wondering whether it's due to them thinking a tree is in the way and they consider that tree the same as a concrete wall.

 

The gunners seem to work as before when the target is out in the open.

 

I can believe that gunners would hope for a better shot than having to blast shells through trees, but didn't they also fire for suppression effect? Especially when the ground troops in the trees are firing on the helicopter?

 

I note that if you take control of the guns from the AI, you can still kill enemy troops in forested areas, but the AI gunners don't seem to agree.

 

El Vert

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If Huey miniguns couldn't kill BMPs and such, then fine, they shouldn't in DCS, and mission designers can take that into account when creating a Huey mission, or modify existing missions that have the Huey up against armor that it shouldn't be able to kill (e.g., change the enemy unit to something softer, add in some AI bombers, whatever).

 

But I am wondering whether the change they made to the AI earlier - where as I recall they said that the gunners will no longer try to fire though buildings and such - may be slightly overdone when it comes to troops in forest cover.

 

I fly several MP scenarios where the enemy is just troops, but we've found that since that change, if the enemy troops are in a forested area, the gunners hold fire. And, they hold fire even though the enemy is well within range, and is firing on the helicopter (and sometimes killing crew members).

 

The gunners apparently see the enemy because you can watch them aim their guns and move that aim as you fly by the target - but they don't fire as they did before. I'm wondering whether it's due to them thinking a tree is in the way and they consider that tree the same as a concrete wall.

 

The gunners seem to work as before when the target is out in the open.

 

I can believe that gunners would hope for a better shot than having to blast shells through trees, but didn't they also fire for suppression effect? Especially when the ground troops in the trees are firing on the helicopter?

 

I note that if you take control of the guns from the AI, you can still kill enemy troops in forested areas, but the AI gunners don't seem to agree.

 

El Vert

You are correct. The entire reason the mini gun exists is for area suppression. AS in firing into the tree line of a hot LZ to suppress enemy fire while a wounded soldier is loaded up.

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... I think there is a script for this but i never tried it.

 

Works fine, applies to the whole group. Was more useful when we had ZPU -1 to 4 as MODs which of course no longer work with the ED change - that leaves the lethal ZPU-23 which is a bit of a handful for the Huey but the script helps some.... I've added DIMs .50 but not tested them yet.

 

--Suppression Script by Marc "MBot" Marbot v20Dec2013

do

   local SuppressedGroups = {}    --Table to temporary store data for suppressed groups
   
   --Function to end suppression and let group open fire again
   local function SuppressionEnd(id)
       id.ctrl:setOption(AI.Option.Ground.id.ROE , AI.Option.Ground.val.ROE.OPEN_FIRE)
       SuppressedGroups[id.groupName] = nil
       --trigger.action.outText(id.groupName .. " suppression end", 2)    --Info for debug
   end

   --Function to run suppress a group
   local function SuppressGroup(tgt)
       local delay = math.random(1, 3)    --Time in seconds the group of a hit unit will be unable to fire
       
       local id = {
           groupName = tgt:getGroup():getName(),
           ctrl = tgt:getGroup():getController()
       }
       
       if SuppressedGroups[id.groupName] == nil then    --If group is currently not suppressed, add to table.
           SuppressedGroups[id.groupName] = {
               SuppressionEndTime = timer.getTime() + delay,
               SuppressionEndFunc = nil
           }
           SuppressedGroups[id.groupName].SuppressionEndFunc = timer.scheduleFunction(SuppressionEnd, id, SuppressedGroups[id.groupName].SuppressionEndTime)    --Schedule the SuppressionEnd() function    
       else    --If group is already suppressed, update table and increase delay
           local timeleft = SuppressedGroups[id.groupName].SuppressionEndTime - timer.getTime()    --Get how long to the end of the suppression
           local addDelay = (delay / timeleft) * delay    --The longer the suppression is going to last, the smaller it is going to be increased by additional hits
           if timeleft < delay then    --But if the time left is shorter than a complete delay, add another full delay
               addDelay = delay
           end
           SuppressedGroups[id.groupName].SuppressionEndTime = SuppressedGroups[id.groupName].SuppressionEndTime + addDelay
           timer.setFunctionTime(SuppressedGroups[id.groupName].SuppressionEndFunc, SuppressedGroups[id.groupName].SuppressionEndTime)    --Update the execution time of the existing instance of the SuppressionEnd() scheduled function
       end
       
       id.ctrl:setOption(AI.Option.Ground.id.ROE , AI.Option.Ground.val.ROE.WEAPON_HOLD)    --Set ROE weapons hold to initate suppression
       --trigger.action.outText(id.groupName .. " suppressed until " .. SuppressedGroups[id.groupName].SuppressionEndTime, 2)    --Info for debug
   end
   
   --Handler to get when units are hit
   SuppressionHandler = {}
   function SuppressionHandler:onEvent(event)
       if event.id == world.event.S_EVENT_HIT then
           local tgt = event.target
           local tgtType = tgt:getTypeName()
           if tgt:hasAttribute("Infantry") or tgt:hasAttribute("Static AAA") or (tgtType == "Ural-375 ZU-23") or (tgtType == "Mobile AAA") or (tgtType == "AAA") or (tgtType == "APC") or (tgtType == "ZU-23 Emplacement") or (tgtType == "Toyota_bleu") or (tgtType == "Toyota_desert") then    --Check if hit unit is infantry, static or mobile ZU-23
               SuppressGroup(tgt)    --Run suppression of hit unit (group)
           end
       end
   end
   world.addEventHandler(SuppressionHandler)
   
end

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  • 2 weeks later...

MOOSE also has a suppression class, which allows you to exert a lot of control over how they act.

 

Suppression_Process.png

 

https://flightcontrol-master.github.io/MOOSE_DOCS/Documentation/Functional.Suppression.html

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What are you shooting them at?

 

I'm having no problem destroying infantry, trucks, armed speedboats, and even some lightly armored vehicles.

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If this option could be modeled somehow, it would add a lot of realism to DCS. Right now we have a boolean decision as to whether it's killed or not.

/Fargo

 

That is coming. For years I have been talking about the need for the better ground units damage modeling, and years ED has said it is coming. And it is coming. It comes first to the WW2 aircrafts, then to ground units (AFAIK) and then to rest of the modern aircrafts.

 

And that means there will be each vehicle armors simulated individually far better, wheels/tracks, engine compartment, ammunition storage, antennas, optics, guns, mantle etc etc.

 

So in future you will be able to actually start to damage the ground units at various different means. BUT, it as well means that every single ground vehicle will become far more deadly against each others. Like a BMP-2/3 or BRDM-60/70/80/80 will become very deadly against MBT as even with a 30mm autocannon it can start knocking off optics, radios, smoke launchers etc.

 

A aircrafts with 20/23/25/30mm cannons will become far more effective as well.

 

And we do not need anymore to try to kill the armored vehicles etc, or it would even be possible, but we start to make mobility kills, crew kills/injurement etc.

 

And most importantly what we need, is the crew simulation, a moral to fight, are willing to risk their lives when they know a attack helicopter is around? As they need to try to spot that thing first, and that requires that every ground units gets their correct FOV simulated, where they need to scan the air, find the hovering helicopter or airplane at the sky, and then be ready to take risk to man a MG/HMG top of the roof to engage such target.

 

But it goes otherway as well. Where helicopters and airplanes start to get far more damage to them, various sub-systems damaged from ground fire, even a infantry can cause serious trouble up to 800-1000 meters with their assault rifles against A-10 flying at them, or helicopter flying around.

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What are you shooting them at?

 

I'm having no problem destroying infantry, trucks, armed speedboats, and even some lightly armored vehicles.

 

Just as for what for the minigun was designed, to be able effectively in short period of time (aiming time) to get more bullets on the target, to get it destroyed or killed.

 

Cars, trucks, boats etc are all very vulnerable to any assault rifle, and minigun is just such, at faster firing rate.

 

A armored, but just slightly, like MT-LB will get fairly easily destroyed by a minigun, as any assault rifle. As those armor levels are mainly against fragments when under artillery fire etc, than against assault rifles at close ranges, because its 3-10mm armor is mainly against just the threat at front, when the vehicle is placed in the defensive position why its turret only is visible and its 14mm armor, or assaulting directly toward a threat and mobility is the protection.

 

But miniguns are not great against APC etc that are protected even against 12.7mm, and some are against 14.5mm. So you would need the 20mm or better to really become effective against those. And that is what the miniguns were before this patch, you were very easily capable to destroy any BMP, BTR or even many MBT just by shooting a second or two burst at them. It was like 20mm cannon fire, at high speed.

 

So now at least we have a proper protection against the minigun on those vehicles, and helicopter pilots really should concentrate to unarmored targets, and use rockets at more serious threats.

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It may get a mission kill (stop the vehicle, damage its propulsion).

 

But not the way we've been seeing where armored vehicles shot with a minigun burst into flame and explode.

 

I'm really excited about the new damage model.

 

As it was before, you could kill a T-55 tank with the Huey miniguns.

 

I see today's update had some "armor adjustments." I will have to experiment.

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I think either the damage reduction has gone too far, or some other things need adjusting - I spent five minutes dogfighting an AI Ka-50 with the fixed miniguns, I hit the rotor head, the tail, fuselage, wings, pretty much everywhere, and no apparent damage at all. Eventually I hit it with two HE rockets & it fell out of the sky, but all that minigun hail would have done *something*, especially around the rotorhead & engine area or the tail.

 

It could be the Ka-50 is a bit tough and the new incoming damage model will correct that ( the WW2 planes certainly take damage from .303/7.62 ), but it seems almost pointless to carry them right now.

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I hope this gets addressed...thanks.

 

What did you expect? Warthog-like efficiency? The last I checked, and it was after the change discussed here, they worked 100% OK. Are you sure it isn't you?

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This was long overdue. Miniguns were crazy effective.

 

At this point any issue people may experience would likely be either due to somewhat unrealistic expectations on their part, or on the general damage model woes in DCS, which are in process of being hopefully solved.

 

Yes, these guns have crazy fire rates, but it doesn't mean most of the bullets connect to target, and individual bullets themselves, especially at longer ranges, will not be all the destructive against vehicles, or decently protected aircraft like the Kamov.

 

I LOVE Huey, don't get me wrong, but I want weapons in DCS to represent both their advantages and challenges :)

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I think it is unrealistic that UH-1H gunners can destroy armored with simple shrapnel. But I think that Huey's overall damage percentage has decreased worryingly, regardless of the weapon used. As an example attached this image, which shows the demolition of an armored vehicle with two rockets and a few meters away an intact Russian paratrooper. No human life would survive the impact of two rockets at eight meters.

 

 

[ATTACH]222686[/ATTACH]

 

So actually it is nearly impossible to destroy a wooden watchtower with the pilots minigun as well.

You need several approaches the impacts are visual at any gunrunn but the effect is minor.

Always happy landings ;)

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This was long overdue. Miniguns were crazy effective.

 

At this point any issue people may experience would likely be either due to somewhat unrealistic expectations on their part, or on the general damage model woes in DCS, which are in process of being hopefully solved.

 

Yes, these guns have crazy fire rates, but it doesn't mean most of the bullets connect to target, and individual bullets themselves, especially at longer ranges, will not be all the destructive against vehicles, or decently protected aircraft like the Kamov.

 

I LOVE Huey, don't get me wrong, but I want weapons in DCS to represent both their advantages and challenges :)

 

Exactly. :thumbup:

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The Huey, before this change was crazy OP. More effective than a Warthog at killing tanks, and that even included a near perpendicular dive on the engine deck of a tank, and giving a good burst with the GAU-8.

 

Our flight group (BuDs) had a dedicated server that included armor, and a lot of tanks. It ran 24/7, and you could work the mission day or night. We had one fella, a Huey master, who could go into the server on full reset, with all the armor and objectives new and fresh, and run the entire map and all the missions by himself. He could destroy entire armored columns with the Huey.

 

 

Granted that included some ground troops directed in ME to kill tanks, but he is very good at the sim, and using just his lone Huey could run the entire Caucasus map.

 

 

No pun intended, but us Hawg guys were having no fun!!! I would load up all excited to run some missions on armor, and all the objectives were met, and the map was clean. He is an Aussie and would clean that thing at night, all by himself!!!


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I've only been flying the UH-1 for a month or so, but it seems like my AI gunners/co-pilot/wingmen have become very complacent.

 

They can have a clear and easy shot, have free fire capability turned on, and be under fire, and still do nothing.

 

It went so far as to have a gunner begin to open fire on a BMP after we had been shot down and were upside down on the ground.

 

Is there anything I can do locally to mitigate this behavior? It's my favorite module, or would be if the friendly AI hadn't gone braindead.

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AI hadn't gone braindead

 

They shouldn't engage any kind of armor since the guns just aren't powerful enough. If they did, upside down or not, that's incorrect behaviour AFAIK. Or did I misunderstand something?

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They shouldn't engage any kind of armor since the guns just aren't powerful enough. If they did, upside down or not, that's incorrect behaviour AFAIK. Or did I misunderstand something?

 

No, you understood. That's what the gunner did.

 

The BMP exploded and everything.

 

The thing is, they don't shoot at soft targets much either. I don't have an issue with the gunners not making everything explode, but you shouldn't need to ignite the ammo store or even kill the crew to render a BRDM or BMP ineffective.

 

They should be lighting those boys up when in range, even if they can't get a nice explosion out of it. I'm sure it's probably something to do with the damage modeling in the game, but I don't know enough about that to really have an informed opinion.

 

I would like to see the gunners actually do something other than sit there and die though.

 

Thanks for responding. :thumbup:

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  • 4 weeks later...

I wanted to resurrect this slightly old thread on the relative uselessness of the AI door gunners of late - something I and others posted on above - to note that something seems to have changed for the better.

 

My post is not about whether miniguns can penetrate armor or should be able to - I have no opinion on that - but rather is summed up by Zaphod's comment above:

 

"The thing is, they don't shoot at soft targets much either."

 

Yeah. I have a variety of missions we use in multiplayer which used to be balanced, but at some point the AI gunners became shy about firing on even soft targets like enemy infantry. The result was that enemy soldiers well within range were firing on our Hueys, but our AI gunners were ignoring the threat (and dying at times). Our gunners apparently saw the targets and tracked them, but as often as not they refused to fire.

 

We had stopped flying some of these missions because they no longer worked, and I was planning on redesigning them to try and reduce enemy troops or something so as to make them work again, but . . . we tried one of those missions again a few nights ago, and the AI gunners seemed to be greatly improved. We tried another, harder mission which relied upon the gunners suppressing enemy troops while the wounded were evacuated - a disaster the last time we tried it - and it too worked very well. At least as well as it did when it was first designed.

 

I don't really follow the update threads all that much and didn't see anything about it so maybe I'm the last to hear of it, but I think that whatever the problem was with the gunners not firing at legitimate targets (again, this is not about firing on or killing armor), that problem may have been fixed by an update. Maybe try it again and see if you agree, and if this is not just my imagination or random chance, thanks to the DCS programmers for a fix on this!

 

El Vert

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should be lighting those boys up when in range

 

Disagree. The guns just aren't powerful enough and AFAIK even APCs and such have armor-plated fuel tanks. Mobility kills maybe when you get, say, all the tyres on one side and render them immobile, but that's about it.

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Disagree. The guns just aren't powerful enough and AFAIK even APCs and such have armor-plated fuel tanks. Mobility kills maybe when you get, say, all the tyres on one side and render them immobile, but that's about it.

 

Even that’s going to be unlikely. Pretty much all military vehicles intended for field service have run flat tires. You basically would need to blow the tires off with an IED or rocket etc. you can’t get mobility kills on an APC with small arms fire. It’s not gonna happen. 5.56 and 7.62 are small arms and these things are designed to take fire from those calibers all day long. That’s why you don’t see anyone yelling Aloha Snackbar while charging an APC with an AK. They do it with an IED, vest bomb, RPG, etc.

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I don't really follow the update threads all that much and didn't see anything about it so maybe I'm the last to hear of it, but I think that whatever the problem was with the gunners not firing at legitimate targets (again, this is not about firing on or killing armor), that problem may have been fixed by an update.

 

Perhaps this

 

DCS World

Fixed M249 AI Infantry poor response to enemy contact.

 

or this

 

DCS UH-1H Huey by ED

Fixed broken view position of door gunner at the second mission run.

 

... has helped the gunner AI.

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