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Your Thoughts: Is the F-16 Worth Time Investment Now, or Just Wait


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1) And so, yes - I do feel betrayed. Not because anyone 'promised' me anything - but because I had an expectation that ED would complete the Hornet in a reasonable time frame - and that patience is wearing extremely thin. In addition I have an expectation of 'fair' - and while a temporary reallocation of resources to help get the Viper out of the door is acceptable, the length of time it is turning into and the poor messaging around this space deepens that feeling.

 

Well that all depends on ones definition of a reasonable time frame, considering that the Hornet was by far EDs most ambitious module in regards to its complexity, I’m actually pretty happy with its progress. The Viper and the Hornet will continue to progress and some features will come to one before the other, if that bugs you then I suggest parking all early access products and only flying finished modules. The other option is you relax and enjoy what’s there and stop taking everything so seriously. In regards to other core issues with the sim, these are being worked on, as Wags said in the latest interview, over 50% of the company is working on core sim updates and not on the modules.

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To be honest, I am not seeing a lot of harsh negativity in this thread. There is obviously some slipping through the cracks but as a whole, this thread has been noticeably polite (especially when compared to the norm in other flight sim forums/communities).

 

That being said, I do feel that there is a middle ground here that is getting dismissed. Those of us (myself included) who are chiming in here with no so positive sentiments are not doing so because we are entitled, kicking and screaming children. We are doing so because we have two massively anticipated modules and neither of them are really in a state that could even be called close to complete. This is understandable but that doesn't mean that it is not also a little frustrating.

 

As I have already said a couple of times. I am not going to freak out about this. I have other (more complete) modules to focus on for the time being but even a developer serving a extremely niche audience can't reasonably expect infinite patience. Especially when there is a significant price tag involved and year long or more early access cycles with no real idea of when things will be finished.

 

While I know that this is certainly subjective (at least to a point), it is a absolute fact that even more than a year after early access release, the Hornet is still not really "mission capable". I mean, sure, you can kinda do some missions and you can certainly mess around with it but as far as putting it in realistic missions built around the capabilities of the aircraft being modeled, it will very quickly show its functionality gaps. This is more than a year later. For those of us who are experienced with ED's development cycle and have plenty of other modules to work with, that may seem somewhat "normal" but that doesn't make it ideal and it does not mean that we shouldn't have serious (and hopefully polite) discussions about where things are at and how long they will take to get done.

 

The F-16's release at this early a stage in its development will probably be remembered as a misstep on ED's part. I know that sounds harsh but it really should have stayed in the oven for another few months at least. The Hornet's development was slowed because of its early release and it isn't reasonable to expect those who have been waiting more than a year for a complete Hornet to not notice or not to give it a second thought.

 

Again. I don't regret giving ED money. I don't regret buying the Hornet or the Viper. That said, I am starting to find myself asking some serious questions about how I will regard their next major release if things continue down the road they are on. Th Viper release wasn't very good and it is my deepest hope that it doesn't take as long for the Viper to get finished as it has for the Hornet to even get to the incomplete state it is at now.

 

Let's not go down the road where we are either with ED or against them. I think all of us here are with ED. It is just that things have gotten complicated and some serious questions do need to start getting asked.

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How many of those ten are complete may I ask? Because therein lies the problem.
There have been lots of military flight sims for decades, and how many of those have ever been complete by modern DCS standards? ED with DCS world is aiming higher than what has ever been done before.

 

On the other hand EA is a slippery slope. I get that a company like ED has lots people with different skillets. As an example, the people working on models and textures might finish with their part of a project before all the systems are done. So it's natural that they move on to the next project before the first is done (think hornet/viper) situation. This might be wise if you foresee that there is overlap in the systems between the aircraft. (E.g. tws) But you risk that the people doing the visuals finish before the systems people once again, and that you end up in a loop with more and more early access, and that of course isn't sustainable. The nightmare scenario would be that they run out of money to develop one module so they have to release a new module to fund the former.

 

I don't know the details about how ED does their work. But I'm sure they think about this stuff quite a lot. I can only hope that they find the right balance between work on new modules, core engine, etc.

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The nightmare scenario would be that they run out of money to develop one module so they have to release a new module to fund the former.

 

Which seems to be their current business model, which is only sustainable by releasing more unfinished modules... until the buyers simply say "enough"..

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To be honest, I am not seeing a lot of harsh negativity in this thread. There is obviously some slipping through the cracks but as a whole, this thread has been noticeably polite (especially when compared to the norm in other flight sim forums/communities).

 

That being said, I do feel that there is a middle ground here that is getting dismissed. Those of us (myself included) who are chiming in here with no so positive sentiments are not doing so because we are entitled, kicking and screaming children. We are doing so because we have two massively anticipated modules and neither of them are really in a state that could even be called close to complete. This is understandable but that doesn't mean that it is not also a little frustrating.

 

As I have already said a couple of times. I am not going to freak out about this. I have other (more complete) modules to focus on for the time being but even a developer serving a extremely niche audience can't reasonably expect infinite patience. Especially when there is a significant price tag involved and year long or more early access cycles with no real idea of when things will be finished.

 

While I know that this is certainly subjective (at least to a point), it is a absolute fact that even more than a year after early access release, the Hornet is still not really "mission capable". I mean, sure, you can kinda do some missions and you can certainly mess around with it but as far as putting it in realistic missions built around the capabilities of the aircraft being modeled, it will very quickly show its functionality gaps. This is more than a year later. For those of us who are experienced with ED's development cycle and have plenty of other modules to work with, that may seem somewhat "normal" but that doesn't make it ideal and it does not mean that we shouldn't have serious (and hopefully polite) discussions about where things are at and how long they will take to get done.

 

The F-16's release at this early a stage in its development will probably be remembered as a misstep on ED's part. I know that sounds harsh but it really should have stayed in the oven for another few months at least. The Hornet's development was slowed because of its early release and it isn't reasonable to expect those who have been waiting more than a year for a complete Hornet to not notice or not to give it a second thought.

 

Again. I don't regret giving ED money. I don't regret buying the Hornet or the Viper. That said, I am starting to find myself asking some serious questions about how I will regard their next major release if things continue down the road they are on. Th Viper release wasn't very good and it is my deepest hope that it doesn't take as long for the Viper to get finished as it has for the Hornet to even get to the incomplete state it is at now.

 

Let's not go down the road where we are either with ED or against them. I think all of us here are with ED. It is just that things have gotten complicated and some serious questions do need to start getting asked.

 

Excellent post and extremely well said. I agree with every word and it completely represents my thoughts and feelings about the F-16.

 

Hopefully ED is reading this and can take some constructive criticism. We all want ED and DCS to be the best that they can be.

 

Which seems to be their current business model, which is only sustainable by releasing more unfinished modules... until the buyers simply say "enough"..

 

The F-16 is my "enough"

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To be honest, I am not seeing a lot of harsh negativity in this thread. There is obviously some slipping through the cracks but as a whole, this thread has been noticeably polite (especially when compared to the norm in other flight sim forums/communities).

 

That being said, I do feel that there is a middle ground here that is getting dismissed. Those of us (myself included) who are chiming in here with no so positive sentiments are not doing so because we are entitled, kicking and screaming children. We are doing so because we have two massively anticipated modules and neither of them are really in a state that could even be called close to complete. This is understandable but that doesn't mean that it is not also a little frustrating.

 

As I have already said a couple of times. I am not going to freak out about this. I have other (more complete) modules to focus on for the time being but even a developer serving a extremely niche audience can't reasonably expect infinite patience. Especially when there is a significant price tag involved and year long or more early access cycles with no real idea of when things will be finished.

 

While I know that this is certainly subjective (at least to a point), it is a absolute fact that even more than a year after early access release, the Hornet is still not really "mission capable". I mean, sure, you can kinda do some missions and you can certainly mess around with it but as far as putting it in realistic missions built around the capabilities of the aircraft being modeled, it will very quickly show its functionality gaps. This is more than a year later. For those of us who are experienced with ED's development cycle and have plenty of other modules to work with, that may seem somewhat "normal" but that doesn't make it ideal and it does not mean that we shouldn't have serious (and hopefully polite) discussions about where things are at and how long they will take to get done.

 

The F-16's release at this early a stage in its development will probably be remembered as a misstep on ED's part. I know that sounds harsh but it really should have stayed in the oven for another few months at least. The Hornet's development was slowed because of its early release and it isn't reasonable to expect those who have been waiting more than a year for a complete Hornet to not notice or not to give it a second thought.

 

Again. I don't regret giving ED money. I don't regret buying the Hornet or the Viper. That said, I am starting to find myself asking some serious questions about how I will regard their next major release if things continue down the road they are on. Th Viper release wasn't very good and it is my deepest hope that it doesn't take as long for the Viper to get finished as it has for the Hornet to even get to the incomplete state it is at now.

 

Let's not go down the road where we are either with ED or against them. I think all of us here are with ED. It is just that things have gotten complicated and some serious questions do need to start getting asked.

Great post.

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I'd say it's worth it, eventhough I very much agree that releasing it this early with so many things not working was a mistake by ED. The reason I think it's still worth getting it now is because I have faith it will be improved immensly over the coming month, and thus it's good to get in some practice with the thing. Also I'm sure it will be a splendid module in the end.

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I have around 1700 hours on Falcon 4. The Checklist, manuals, weapon delivery are all laying around on my desk. Never ever left.

 

 

 

What do you think that I am going to do? No doubt, I buy it - correction I already bought it ...

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I purchased the F18 early access and was not disappointed. Different story for the F-16 early access for me. Very little on the screens other than placeholders, and a cockpit where lots of things do not work. Lack of exterior lights still puzzles me as to why you would do that. Every new car owner looks outside first so do DCS F-16 drivers. If i was new to DCS and purchased it, I would be one unhappy bear. Bottom line it was released for me, way to early. The other problem is with so much not working, your going to remember the bits you want fixed and not the bits that work.


Edited by RAF_JAGUAR

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I'll add my reason for buying the Viper.... I wanted to support ED financially for all their great work and dedication to my favorite hobby. I also knew that I would be buying the Viper at some point anyway so I pulled the trigger early access and very happy that I did. I think that when you look at all the available modules there is plenty of great flying to be enjoyed at different states of completeness and the Viper certainly has it's spot as well as the FA-18. Enjoy!

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Bought the Early Access Viper in pre sales because of the discount. I would have bought the Viper anyway. Didn´t regret it, in contrary: enjoy it very much and also enjoy that I could follow the development of it to the final release - makes the Viper somehow personal to me.

Anyway, I don´t care for the exterior lights currently not implemented or some external textures, to be implemented later.

 

I think it was the right decision of ED to give the Viper to public at this early access stage. If they wouldn´t the shitstorm in the internet would have been even greater, if the announced EA released date would have been delayed. Anyway people complain anything they could get - if it is some missing exterior light or anything, they immediately jump on to it, blow it up to a huge complaint to damnate people they even don´t know.

 

Anyways, early access versions should get into release versions at some point and I am confident, that the Viper of ED, with the development of the Hornet in background, will be become earlier a release candidate than the modules of the significantly smaller 3rd Party developer teams.

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I was a huge Falcon 4.0 fan who thought the days of new highly realistic flight sims was over. I discovered DCS about three years ago and have been grinning ever since. I got in late on the A-10C and never fully learned it as I got wrapped up in the F-18. It was great to learn it as others were figuring it out, lots of help on this forum and elsewhere. I planned to do the same with the F-16 and have enjoyed it so far. I got a little frustrated recently with it and some new problems with dropping multiple JDAM’s on multiple targets in the F-18. But I found the perfect cure: I have gone back to the A-10C and am finally really learning it. It is a blast, great plane. And as patches and updates come out for the F-18 and F-16 I can catch up on those models. I don’t regret buying the F-16 or the F-18 in EA as it is great to learn a new module along with everyone else.

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To be honest, I am not seeing a lot of harsh negativity in this thread. There is obviously some slipping through the cracks but as a whole, this thread has been noticeably polite (especially when compared to the norm in other flight sim forums/communities).

 

That being said, I do feel that there is a middle ground here that is getting dismissed. Those of us (myself included) who are chiming in here with no so positive sentiments are not doing so because we are entitled, kicking and screaming children. We are doing so because we have two massively anticipated modules and neither of them are really in a state that could even be called close to complete. This is understandable but that doesn't mean that it is not also a little frustrating.

 

As I have already said a couple of times. I am not going to freak out about this. I have other (more complete) modules to focus on for the time being but even a developer serving a extremely niche audience can't reasonably expect infinite patience. Especially when there is a significant price tag involved and year long or more early access cycles with no real idea of when things will be finished.

 

While I know that this is certainly subjective (at least to a point), it is a absolute fact that even more than a year after early access release, the Hornet is still not really "mission capable". I mean, sure, you can kinda do some missions and you can certainly mess around with it but as far as putting it in realistic missions built around the capabilities of the aircraft being modeled, it will very quickly show its functionality gaps. This is more than a year later. For those of us who are experienced with ED's development cycle and have plenty of other modules to work with, that may seem somewhat "normal" but that doesn't make it ideal and it does not mean that we shouldn't have serious (and hopefully polite) discussions about where things are at and how long they will take to get done.

 

The F-16's release at this early a stage in its development will probably be remembered as a misstep on ED's part. I know that sounds harsh but it really should have stayed in the oven for another few months at least. The Hornet's development was slowed because of its early release and it isn't reasonable to expect those who have been waiting more than a year for a complete Hornet to not notice or not to give it a second thought.

 

Again. I don't regret giving ED money. I don't regret buying the Hornet or the Viper. That said, I am starting to find myself asking some serious questions about how I will regard their next major release if things continue down the road they are on. Th Viper release wasn't very good and it is my deepest hope that it doesn't take as long for the Viper to get finished as it has for the Hornet to even get to the incomplete state it is at now.

 

Let's not go down the road where we are either with ED or against them. I think all of us here are with ED. It is just that things have gotten complicated and some serious questions do need to start getting asked.

 

Yup. Totally agree. I bought the viper to support ED and yeah yeah EA and all that, but I also have the hornet which needs some serious work on its features, which has mostly slowed to a crawl.

 

My hope was the Viper would move quick given a lot of the weapons/systems are already on the hornet, and while they need to be adapted I figured a good portion of the development had been done. And this was "advertised" but I feel like we have yet to see it. I'm still hopeful this is going to be the case but I do think it could have come with a few more things implemented (editing waypoints as good example) or a bit more maturity on the various A/A modes.

 

I also feel like this isn't really limited to ED. The harrier has a similarly bad development cycle. Again, you can do "stuff" with it at this point, but there is just a bunch of stuff missing/bugged etc. and that's after 2+ years in development. And I really have no idea of what might get fixed/added/debugged in the next 6 months.

 

Honestly I'm mostly excited about the JF-17 since I hope it will be "mostly complete" like the F14.


Edited by Harlikwin

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At it's current state the Viper is a huge disappointment. Just take a look at the list of verified bugs - it's ginormous.

That apparently depends on your expectations about an EA release.

 

I'm enjoying the F-16 a lot :)

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How many of those ten are complete may I ask? Because therein lies the problem.

 

Well, I have the following complete modules:

- Persian Gulf: Complete

- Nevada TTR: Complete

- Normandy: Complete with an upcoming facelifting upgrade

- P51D Mustang: Complete

- FC3: Complete with constant upgrades even being 10+ years old.

- A10C: Complete with upcoming facelift

- F5E: Complete

- UH-1: Complete

- Mi8: Complete

- Ka50: Complete with upcoming facelift and content upgrade

- Gazelle: Complete with upcoming Flight model upgrade.

- F86E Sabre: Complete

 

And those two early access ones:

- F18C

- Av8B

 

Both of them fully playable with bugs and missing content of course.

 

So yeah, tell me again that "everything is early access".

 

And all of them are fully supported. Bugs appear because engine change and the main game develops with better or newer mechanics. A bug free sim is a stale one.

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So of your list:

- Persian Gulf: Complete

- Nevada TTR: Complete

- Normandy: Complete with an upcoming facelifting upgrade

Irrelevant - these are maps, not planes.

 

- P51D Mustang: Complete

The 'free' TF51 + guns (in essence) - so they have to keep this one up to scratch.

 

- FC3: Complete with constant upgrades even being 10+ years old.

Very simple system modelling

 

- A10C: Complete with upcoming facelift

Accepted as only graphical.

- F5E: Complete

- UH-1: Complete

Not complete. Missing Multicrew for 6 years, though allegedly now coming.

- Mi8: Complete

- Ka50: Complete with upcoming facelift and content upgrade

So Not complete

 

- Gazelle: Complete with upcoming Flight model upgrade.

So Not complete

 

- F86E Sabre: Complete

 

And those two early access ones:

- F18C

- Av8B

 

So for the Fully simulated ones you own:

Complete:

A10C

F5E

MI-8

F86

 

Not complete:

UH1

Ka-50

Gazelle

F18C

Av8B


Edited by Arctander
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Hi

 

If you want to discuss the state of various other modules and your perception of them please do it in another thread.

 

The topic here is the F-16, lets not derail this thread completely.

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I have around 1700 hours on Falcon 4. The Checklist, manuals, weapon delivery are all laying around on my desk. Never ever left.

 

...

 

I understand.

 

Although I do not use them anymore, "TOPGUN: Fire at Will !" and "Digital Integration F-16" boxes with the CDs and the manuals, do still at a shelf behind me even today... from 1995 or so.

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Is the F-16 worth buying right now?

 

If you´re a hot shot test pilot, who likes to try out the newest stuff and be a part of the development, then YES.

 

If you´re a combat pilot who need something that reliably kills your opponent in hostile skies or at Red Flag, then NO.

 

I think the F-16, as it is now in Early Access is to compare with a bare bones prototype aircraft early in the test program. It flies, but is not ready for war.

 

The Hornet on the other hand, while still in Early Access, is like an operational fighter that is quite capable, but not yet at its full potential.

 

Even in the real world capabilities are added to an aircraft through out its service life. Stuff that was meant to be included from the start might take a few years to be completed due to various reasons.

Viggen aficionados like to point out that the JA 37D was in many ways more capable than the JAS 39A Gripen that was supposed to replace it.

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Is the F-16 worth buying right now?

 

If you´re a hot shot test pilot, who likes to try out the newest stuff and be a part of the development, then YES.

 

If you´re a combat pilot who need something that reliably kills your opponent in hostile skies or at Red Flag, then NO.

 

I think the F-16, as it is now in Early Access is to compare with a bare bones prototype aircraft early in the test program. It flies, but is not ready for war.

 

The Hornet on the other hand, while still in Early Access, is like an operational fighter that is quite capable, but not yet at its full potential.

 

Even in the real world capabilities are added to an aircraft through out its service life. Stuff that was meant to be included from the start might take a few years to be completed due to various reasons.

Viggen aficionados like to point out that the JA 37D was in many ways more capable than the JAS 39A Gripen that was supposed to replace it.

 

This is a good way of thinking of it. And personally I'm enjoying being a test pilot :D

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PointCTRL VR : Finger Trackers for VR -- Real Simulator : FSSB R3L Force Sensing Stick. -- Deltasim : Force Sensor WH Slew Upgrade -- Mach3Ti Ring : Real Flown Mach 3 SR-71 Titanium, made into an amazing ring.

 

My Fathers Aviation Memoirs: 50 Years of Flying Fun - From Hunter to Spitfire and back again.

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To the OP. If you wish to fly and enjoy a well developed F16 home simulator there are better options at this time than the module from ED.

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I think its great, been flying it in multiplayer since launch day, kill stuff, and not dieing. The implementation of IFF was what it needed to be use-able imo, Everything else is just icing on the cake.

 

I agree, it's all I've been flying and I have a great time in it even how it is now. F-16 is my favorite bird so it's a must have for me, I'd rather have it the way it is than watch Wags fly it on Youtube.

 

I feel (just my opinion dont kill me) the whole "learning things wrong" argument is overrated, it should be simple to just adapt.

 

Love this bird, love that it's out, love dropping bombs killing things and refueling, IFF helped immensely.

 

:pilotfly:

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