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Why use IR pointer for Mav engagements?


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Like the title says, the JTAC in the second Tactical Training Qualification campaign mission specifies a type 3 engagement using Mavs with an IR pointer mark. Since it is type 3 and Mavs are standoff weapons, the use of IR pointer seems counter productive. Any thoughts? Thanks

Radial Madness

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Like the title says, the JTAC in the second Tactical Training Qualification campaign mission specifies a type 3 engagement using Mavs with an IR pointer mark. Since it is type 3 and Mavs are standoff weapons, the use of IR pointer seems counter productive. Any thoughts? Thanks

 

I haven't flown this particular mission.

 

However, type 3 means that you're cleared to engage several targets/perform several attacks with one clearance (and the clearance will be "Cleared to engage", unlike type 1 and 2 "cleared hot" for individual attacks).

 

My guess is, the IR pointer is supposed to show you the target area and improve your SA. However, it is not meant to guide your weapons, that remains your own job.

 

AFAIK, the IR pointer is also the preferred tool to mark targets at night, because it's invisible to the naked eye but clearly visible while on NVGs, which the friendlies tend to wear at night. Marks like smoke could be seen by the enemy just as well, and then they'll know for sure it's time to take cover. IRL a target area could be entirely marked by moving the pointer all around it. AI JTACs probably won't do that, and I'm not sure if this tactic is actually used IRL, but it seems logical to me.

 

To sum it all up: If you're spending all your time heads-down in the TGP and TAD displays, you're doing something wrong. If you're on NVGs and look out the window, the IR pointer should give an insta-boost to your SA.

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Don't forget that it might also make sense in order to point out the target of highest priority they might want you to hit first. It might not be possible to distinguish vehicle types in the seeker picture when at standoff distances.

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Good points but my issue is the pointer is generally not visible until the Mav is approaching or exceeding its gimbal limit leaving little or no time to lock on and shoot. In other engagements in the same mission the IR pointer is specified and guns or rockets are requested. This seems to make more sense (at least to me) since they are short range and require the Mark 2 Eyeball for guidance.

Radial Madness

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Good points but my issue is the pointer is generally not visible until the Mav is approaching or exceeding its gimbal limit leaving little or no time to lock on and shoot. In other engagements in the same mission the IR pointer is specified and guns or rockets are requested. This seems to make more sense (at least to me) since they are short range and require the Mark 2 Eyeball for guidance.

 

Maybe it's because I don't have a mental picture of the situation at hand (I'm lacking the necessary SA ;)), but I still don't understand the problem.

 

Do you have a TGP available? If possible, I'd try to get the TGP on target, create a markpoint, and then figure out an attack plan from a safe distance. Or you could do the exact same thing with the Mav seeker, and then turn around and come back with a decent run-in.

 

With a locking range of roughly 6 nm for the D-model Maverick, there is little time to slew it on target and rifle off a shot, while also making sure you're not accidentally targeting the wrong end of the IR pointer (the JTAC might yell at you if you do. Or worse, he might not).

 

I would always prefer to get a very good look at the target and target area, and then run in on my own terms and in my own time. Especially in a CAS mission. There are several videos from real engagements where the guys on the ground repeated that it's urgent, they pretty much cleared the attacking planes as soon as they were on station, but the pilots had not built sufficient SA to drop weapons just yet, so they did their absolute best to understand the situation on the ground before engaging. So if the AI JTAC is a bit impatient - let him. :)

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Yurgon, I think that your philosophy of running in, confirming and then turn around for the Mav launch makes the best sense. I will give that a go. Many thanks!

 

Harzach, if you consider my old 20/2000 eyeballs an upgrade we're both in trouble!

Radial Madness

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You can also ask the JTAC to and "snake" (move the IR pointer in 8-figures on the target), this can help determine which end of the IR pointer is the good one.

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The IR is simply to allow visibility to where the TGP is being designated at night (for use with NVG's).

 

 

Cheers,

 

Don

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Guys, I know the IR is for designation only. The issue is when using Mavs, by the time you spot the pointer its usually too late to slave and shoot the Mav unless you do a go around as Yurgon suggests. BTW Yurgon, that worked a charm even though the FE got impatient. Too bad! I called end of vul and just re-established a new vul to finish the job. TTQ12 complete! Yay and thanks!

Radial Madness

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Do this!

Spot IR pointer, cool. > maneuver flight so that IR pointer is at your 12 oclock. > coolie hat up short, to se HUD SOI. > use TDC cursor and slew it to IR. > press TMS up LONG this will set SPI. > press China HAT FWD Long to slew TGP to IR. A simple task can be difficult if we dont understand the basics. Hope this helps.

The A-10C requires you to fly Heads up, and not heads down, and h.o.t.a.s.


Edited by Teomo
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Do this!

Spot IR pointer, cool. > maneuver flight so that IR pointer is at your 12 oclock. > coolie hat up short, to se HUD SOI. > use TDC cursor and slew it to IR. > press TMS up LONG this will set SPI. > press China HAT FWD Long to slew TGP to IR. A simple task can be difficult if we dont understand the basics. Hope this helps.

The A-10C requires you to fly Heads up, and not heads down, and h.o.t.a.s.

 

Also, another good tactic. Quick, simple, and most importantly - effective.

 

 

 

Cheers,

 

Don

i7 6700 @4ghz, 32GB HyperX Fury ddr4-2133 ram, GTX980, Oculus Rift CV1, 2x1TB SSD drives (one solely for DCS OpenBeta standalone) Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS, Thrustmaster Cougar MFDs

 

Airframes: A10C, A10CII, F/A-18C, F-14B, F-16C, UH=1H, FC3. Modules: Combined Arms, Supercarrier. Terrains: Persian Gulf, Nevada NTTR, Syria

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Do this!

Spot IR pointer, cool. > maneuver flight so that IR pointer is at your 12 oclock. > coolie hat up short, to se HUD SOI. > use TDC cursor and slew it to IR. > press TMS up LONG this will set SPI. > press China HAT FWD Long to slew TGP to IR. A simple task can be difficult if we dont understand the basics. Hope this helps.

The A-10C requires you to fly Heads up, and not heads down, and h.o.t.a.s.

 

 

 

 

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

 

Also to add, if you aren't changing SPI almost a half dozen times before rifling or pickling, then you are not taking advantage of the A10C's superior weapons/target management systems.

 

 

 

Steer to TDC to TGP to Markpoint back to TGP... slave all.. then fire! Not necessarily in that same order, but you get the point.

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Do this!

Spot IR pointer, cool. > maneuver flight so that IR pointer is at your 12 oclock. > coolie hat up short, to se HUD SOI. > use TDC cursor and slew it to IR. > press TMS up LONG this will set SPI. > press China HAT FWD Long to slew TGP to IR. A simple task can be difficult if we dont understand the basics. Hope this helps.

The A-10C requires you to fly Heads up, and not heads down, and h.o.t.a.s.

 

I used to leave my mav caged and "fly it" on whatever the mark is (smoke, IR, etc) then ground stabilize it (TMS down short), then i started doing so with the TGP as it gave me better SA while manouvering to get ready for the actual engagement run. I find the HUD's TDC too keen to errors and have to fine-tun with TGP/MAV anyway so why not do it right away?:pilotfly:

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