[CHECKING] Turn Rate

[bkthunder]

Sorry, should have clarified this is a Hornet with only 2x AIM-9M on the wingtips, same for the F-15s and F-16.

 

The hornet has more total thrust than an F-16, even if the T/W ratio is lower, which results in a higher T/W ratio for the hornet with heavier payloads, however that is not true in a clean or nealy clean config AND T/W ratio is not taking drag into any consideration.

 

STR being considerably better than the F-16 is at the very least hard to believe, considering the F-16 is universally known as a rate-fighter, while the hornet is a radius-fighter.

[Nomad]

Not another one of these pls. Show some real proof (charts etc) instead of the usual "I saw that this plane beats that plane on discovery channel!!" kind of nonsense. And btw, even then it won't tell the whole story because rl Hornet pilots don't use paddle switch for combat, but we do in the sim.

[oldcrusty]

...Hornet pilots don't use paddle switch for combat, but we do in the sim...

 

Never had to, well... it's actually I always forget to:doh:

Seriously, I'm having hard time maintaining energy as it is. Paddle switch would probably get me in trouble quick.

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

I find the F14 matches up to the F18 quite nicely. As long as I can see it that is :)

Regards

[Fri13]

With little training the turning becomes easy as you hear and you just see your rate and you can keep going with just flying instead by the numbers.

 

Years ago when I flied with monitors and TrackIR, it was always by the numbers. It was challenging thing to fly as your situational awareness was easily lost. Look once away from target and it was gone. And you needed to do that to look your instruments. One huge benefit was back then a FF joystick, that was giving excellent feedback when you are reaching the stall speeds and what were the forces affecting your aircraft etc.

 

But then VR happened and then Hornet came out.

And it became super easy to fly with all aircrafts as you have huge situational awareness that how your aircraft is acting just by the visual feedback by looking around.

 

Many, many other things affects to that as well. Like actually having a flight seat than some office chair and table. No more keyboard+mouse but just HOTAS and hand controllers to operate the cockpit. A good extended joystick instead short one.

 

The major thing that simply made it was that visual information. You don't even need to think about things as you just fly by your instincts and feelings, you understand the enemy and your energy capabilities, the positions of each and the situations that are to come. So when example fighting in 2 vs 1 situation it is easy to stay informed from both targets and switching between them is easy so that you don't let either one to get suddenly behind you.

 

Numbers are gone, it is that you look target and you understand what you need to do.

 

What is great educational tool is the TacView for analyzing the situations when you did something wrong. But that is more for learning that how to fly the aircraft you are in to with its configuration than anything else.

[bies]

It may have something to do with the fact we have F-16C block 50 'SEAD' variant. It is half ton heavier than most produced block 30 'fighter' variant with similar GE engine.

 

Block 30 had the best T/W, STR, climb rate, acceleration but it had previous analog flight control system with bigger safety margins.

 

Ask C.W. Lemoine which had better STR, he flew both F-16 and F/A-18.

He has popular YT channel.

Edited March 9, 2020 by bies

[Wizard_03]

Not another one of these pls. Show some real proof (charts etc) instead of the usual "I saw that this plane beats that plane on discovery channel!!" kind of nonsense. And btw, even then it won't tell the whole story because rl Hornet pilots don't use paddle switch for combat, but we do in the sim.

 

 

1.16 prevents us from actually comparing the charts here, but If you've ever seen the ones for the 402 hornet, they're quite interesting. The notion that the hornet is a big, fat, slow cow compared to the viper is just not the case. The EPEs really make a difference, especially when both aircraft are in actual combat configurations. No viper IRL is going to be dogfighting completely slick with drag factor of less then 50, Even in specific BFM training sorties they still need the ACMI pod, CAP-9 for balance on the outer wing pylons and they typically carry CAP-120s on the wingtip launchers, and more often then not, it's gonna have a center tank because of it's tiny legs. All of which eat into its performance.

 

In situations like that or in actual combat, they become very comparable. The viper may be a race-horse but the hornet is a war-horse. :)

 

As far as the paddle switch is concerned, as any of the actual hornet drivers will tell you, number 1; its not necessary, so if your using it, your not fighting the hornet correctly. And number 2; Over stressing the air frame in a BFM situation is about the worst thing you can do, because the jet then becomes unpredictable and unsafe as it's exceeded its design limitations and you have no idea what the consequences of that will be. The next time you pull the stick to the stop, your wings could snap off, the control surfaces could jam, your tanks could have cracked, your weapons could fail to separate, all sorts of unpleasantness, that you wouldn't want in the middle of a fight for your life.

 

All that said, We probably won't get anything more then a Yes its accurate or its WIP answer from ED on this, if they decide to grace this thread at all. lol I would venture to say, I think they need to revisit the eagles FM because a lot has changed since it was completed, and I've read elsewhere that the viper is performing below it's respective charts in some cases to due to drag and engine modeling not being totally completed yet.

Edited March 10, 2020 by Wizard_03

[Kula66]

Anyone listen to C.W. Lemoine's excellent 'Folds of Honor' commentary? The guy (a real-life F-18/F-16 pilot - great YT channel BTW) comes across as absolutely staggered at the way the DCS F-18 flies in game - he comments on it again and agin! The F-18 plays as an energy fighter against F-14s, F-16s etc - its just not supposed to fly that way, because it can't in R/L!

Edited March 10, 2020 by Kula66

[Kapsu]

Anyone listen to C.W. Lemoine's excellent 'Folds of Honor' commentary? The guy (a real-life F-18/F-16 pilot - great YT channel BTW) comes across as absolutely staggered at the way the DCS F-18 flies in game - he comments on it again and agin! The F-18 plays as an energy fighter against F-14s, F-16s etc - its just not supposed to fly that way, because it can't in R/L!

AFAIK he never flew an EPE hornet though, only A model.

 

In 2.5.6 drag for pylons was added so now that's also a factor, i haven't tested how much it affects turn performance but speed wise difference is clearly noticable. Also F-16 STR is limited by pilot G- modelling right now which REALLY hurts it's effectivenes in BFM so don't draw any conclusions based on that.

[Kula66]

AFAIK he never flew an EPE hornet though, only A model.

 

I don't know ... is it likely he has ever flown against 'our' hornet in the adversary role? Probably.

 

I agree the config makes a big difference, we mainly fly without pylons, where as in R/L this is unusual.

[Wizard_03]

The EPEs add about 10 percent more peak thrust total, it’s a pretty big increase. You’ll definitely see a difference in performance across the board, compared to the A/B

Edited March 10, 2020 by Wizard_03

[Nomad]

As far as the paddle switch is concerned, as any of the actual hornet drivers will tell you, number 1; its not necessary, so if your using it, your not fighting the hornet correctly.

That's because they don't fight in RL as we do in the sim, and in the sim the paddle switch is very much necessary. If you fight any competent F-14, 15 or mirage without it, they will dumpster you.

 

And number 2; Over stressing the air frame in a BFM situation is about the worst thing you can do, because the jet then becomes unpredictable and unsafe as it's exceeded its design limitations and you have no idea what the consequences of that will be. The next time you pull the stick to the stop, your wings could snap off, the control surfaces could jam, your tanks could have cracked, your weapons could fail to separate, all sorts of unpleasantness, that you wouldn't want in the middle of a fight for your life.

Not modeled in DCS, so irrelevant atm. Also from my understanding, using the override on a Hornet is not likely to cause such effects immediately, which is all you would care about in a DCS dogfight, so even if it was modeled in, it would still be a common practice to pull on that paddle 24/7.

[Kapsu]

That's because they don't fight in RL as we do in the sim, and in the sim the paddle switch is very much necessary. If you fight any competent F-14, 15 or mirage without it, they will dumpster you.

NOT true, not at all. If you know your BFM and your jet you won't need paddle switch in DCS neither.

[Fri13]

why does people think that disabling AutoPilot system is great idea when exceeding the design limits? it is great idea when you have autopilot On and you want to take control in normal flight without fighting against it, but when it is designed to give you maximum performance at the that level of designs.

 

And more and more automations has been added to aircrafts, so that you can fly like a video game.

 

The idea that there is this magical "paddle switch" that will "release the beast" is just same as Su-27S and its "Cobra mode" that doesn't exist, as you simply pull harder the stick instead override some limiters etc....

[hawk4me]

Most of the limitations to the F16 right now is G Loading. F16's are designed with 9g+ turn's in mind. DCS will not let you pull 9g's for more than a second or two sometime's not even that long. Once the G Loading is modeled correctly and 10-12g pulls are allowed without blacking out instantly the F16 will become a much stronger dogfighter. It is already quite good as it is but you have to really read your opponent well and if you get to slow you can get in trouble real quick.

[bkthunder]

So, I was searching around and found the exact same issue posted over at hoggit, with some nice numbers to go with it. Very interesting thread with lots of good info, an example of good discussion as opposed to what we have here, sorry to say.

 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/dfhgif/dcs_f16_vs_fa18_performance_tested/

 

 

P.S.

The general consensus there is the F-18s STR is overpowered and Nineline has apparently passed the concern to the devs.

[Kapsu]

This topic has been discussed before with more details here as well.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=252095

[oldcrusty]

Most of the limitations to the F16 right now is G Loading. F16's are designed with 9g+ turn's in mind. DCS will not let you pull 9g's for more than a second or two sometime's not even that long. Once the G Loading is modeled correctly and 10-12g pulls are allowed without blacking out instantly the F16 will become a much stronger dogfighter. It is already quite good as it is but you have to really read your opponent well and if you get to slow you can get in trouble real quick.

 

Jeez, I wish there was some sort of mandatory "G suffering equivalent" devices all simmers would have to install... anything from electric shock to lanyards attached to arms and neck that would pull with f****** force down toward the keyboard! fun, fun, fun!:D

[RentedAndDented]

So there is also a test mission going around which records your turn rate only when you are within parameters for a certain amount of time (ie: ensuring you're not artificially inflating the turn rate by slowing slightly, which I have seen people do). I just tried it again just cos I can.

 

Both aircraft are clean, no pylons, 50% fuel, standard day. I won't go over the G-limiter, because that is a genuine limitation of the Hornet that keeps it slow.

 

Sea Level (~300ft)

 

F-16

350kts: 19.2

400kts: 19.7

450kts: 20.1

500kts: Accelerating at 9G.

 

F/A-18

350kts: 20.1

400kts: Accelerating at 7.4G, can't hold it.

 

15,000ft

F-16

350kts: 12.7

400kts: 13.4

450kts: 13.8

500kts: 12.4 (supersonic)

 

F/A-18

350kts: 13.5

400kts: 13.9

450kts: 13.1

500kts: ~11 due to the G-bucket (supersonic)

 

This paints a picture that there could be a problem, but I think the difference is small. The F-16 here is basically at the same turn rate as the Hornet at a 50kt or 100kt higher speed. The Hornet has to be *very* disciplined already to avoid being slow. At 350kts, the Hornet will alpha itself to oblivion and the F-16 does accelerate a lot faster.

Also at 15k and 450kts+, the F-16 starts to have a clear advantage.

However, if there is a small buff to the F-16 or a nerf to the F/A-18, which would not surprise me, I think the difference in practice will be quite decisive.

 

So, I was searching around and found the exact same issue posted over at hoggit, with some nice numbers to go with it....

[Wizard_03]

F/A-18

350kts: 20.1

400kts: Accelerating at 7.4G, can't hold it.

 

Based on the charts I’ve seen for the hornet that number at sea level seems too high, however the data was for 4 missiles and 60 percent fuel. Can you do it again at sea level with 2 sidewinders on 1/9 and 2 Sparrows on 4/6 at 60 percent fuel?

Edited March 18, 2020 by Wizard_03

[RentedAndDented]

That is the GAO document, and I have done that, I got rates in the 19.xs. I can't do the whole lot right now, but it seemed reasonable.

 

 

 

Based on the charts I’ve seen for the hornet that number at sea level seems too high, however the data was for 4 missiles and 60 percent fuel. Can you do it again at sea level with 2 sidewinders on 1/9 and 2 Sparrows on 4/6 at 60 percent fuel?

[Wizard_03]

Ok I see, yeah if you got 19s with that load I'd say it needs looked at. The 15K one looked close though.

[Kapsu]

With 2x AIM-120C, 2x AIM-9M and 60% fuel i got pretty much exactly that 19.2 deg/s at SL and 0.6 mach, both with and without pylons.

[Wizard_03]

The FM includes the pylons at all times, removing them is only visual option at this time, AFAIK. But anyways yes, then looks like a tweak is in order.

[Kapsu]

Pylons have drag now and if i'm not mistaken drag was added to existing FM, not taken away when pylons are removed.

 

Care to explain what's wrong with that turn rate? It matches the turn rate mentioned at GAO report, is the speed where you get that 19 deg/s wrong?