Landing AOA...

[Mover]

1 minute ago, Hiob said:

Hey @Mover,

so I hope I get it right - please correct me:

Approach and throttle for 11 Alpha, once reaching the treshold (feet altitude?), throttle to idle and flare to 13 alpha and let it settle on the runway?

thank you!

 

Edit: Would you typically land with airbrakes or without, or does it depend on weight?

 

 

At around 750-1000 ft prior to the threshold, adjust your aimpoint to a point 300-500ft down the runway.  Power to idle (as required) during the roundout and transition to 12-13AOA (don't exceed 13 AOA prior to touchdown).  Once you touchdown, maintain or set 13 degrees AOA using back pressure as required.

 

Speedbrakes are open... full open (override) once you're in a three point attitude with the stick AFT.  

[Hiob]

1 minute ago, Mover said:

 

At around 750-1000 ft prior to the threshold, adjust your aimpoint to a point 300-500ft down the runway.  Power to idle (as required) during the roundout and transition to 12-13AOA (don't exceed 13 AOA prior to touchdown).  Once you touchdown, maintain or set 13 degrees AOA using back pressure as required.

 

Speedbrakes are open... full open (override) once you're in a three point attitude with the stick AFT.  

Ok, I get most of it, I think.

What does "three point attiude" mean in this context?

[_SteelFalcon_]

8 minutes ago, Hiob said:

What does "three point attiude" mean in this context?

it means, as soon as your front wheel touches down, you can fully open the speed brakes to help you slow down. if you open them all the way while aerobraking, you'll scratch them on the runway

Edited October 20, 2021 by _SteelFalcon_

[Hiob]

3 minutes ago, _SteelFalcon_ said:

it means, as soon as your front wheel touches down, you can fully open the speed brakes to help you slow down. if you open them while aerobraking, you'll scratch them on the runway

Oh, my mind was still in the aerobraking part of my landing. Sure - makes sense.

So that means, airbrakes are used in the approach but NOT fully opened, correct? I tend to use them to digital probably....need to improve on that.

 

Edit: I'd love if ED would (or give us the option to) over emphasize the different sounds (wind, turbulences, afterburner detend and so on) more. Not real sure, but we lack the sense of forces due to braking e.g. at home. I think, that would compensate for that more.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Hiob

[Mover]

23 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Oh, my mind was still in the aerobraking part of my landing. Sure - makes sense.

So that means, airbrakes are used in the approach but NOT fully opened, correct? I tend to use them to digital probably....need to improve on that.

 

Edit: I'd love if ED would (or give us the option to) over emphasize the different sounds (wind, turbulences, afterburner detend and so on) more. Not real sure, but we lack the sense of forces due to braking e.g. at home. I think, that would compensate for that more.

 

Yes, fully opened - as in, open them and release the switch.  With the MLG down and locked, they'll retract and stay at 43 degrees once you release the switch.  They should not be held in override.  Override (opening them the full 60 degrees) will grind them down.  Once all three wheels are on the ground, you can hold them in the override position and get the full 60 degrees.

[Hiob]

3 minutes ago, Mover said:

Yes, fully opened - as in, open them and release the switch.  With the MLG down and locked, they'll retract and stay at 43 degrees once you release the switch.  They should not be held in override.  Override (opening them the full 60 degrees) will grind them down.  Once all three wheels are on the ground, you can hold them in the override position and get the full 60 degrees.

Now I get it. Thank you, much appreciated!

[NWGJulian]

Am 19.10.2021 um 14:38 schrieb Mover:

And you do go to idle in the roundout/flare in a Viper.  It floats significantly if you dont.

very interessting to read that!

because, since i dont go to idle while flaring (juust a tiny little bit of throttle), my landings in the viper are smooth as f . . .

with throttle on idle, i had some pretty hard landings; flaring didnt seem to help very much, and with the increased aoa i also touched the tarmac with the nozzle. tiny bit of throttle helped a lot to smooth out my landings.

but maybe i am just flaring too late, or i am too slow (aiming for 11 degr aoa every time), idk, i am just a hobby viper pilot 

Edited October 20, 2021 by NWGJulian

[Baz000]

On 10/20/2021 at 9:48 AM, Mover said:

Yes, fully opened - as in, open them and release the switch.  With the MLG down and locked, they'll retract and stay at 43 degrees once you release the switch.  They should not be held in override.  Override (opening them the full 60 degrees) will grind them down.  Once all three wheels are on the ground, you can hold them in the override position and get the full 60 degrees.

@Mover Do some Viper pilots ever while in the air either during the perch or after on rollout on short final "fan" the boards (albeit briefly) in the override position to help slow down to at least 11 degrees AOA if they come in too fast for whatever reason? Say for example speed built up too much on them in the perch and on rollout now they have to bleed down to 11 degrees AOA.

as an example per say.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Baz000

[Hiob]

13 hours ago, NWGJulian said:

very interessting to read that!

because, since i dont go to idle while flaring (juust a tiny little bit of throttle), my landings in the viper are smooth as f . . .

with throttle on idle, i had some pretty hard landings; flaring didnt seem to help very much, and with the increased aoa i also touched the tarmac with the nozzle. tiny bit of throttle helped a lot to smooth out my landings.

but maybe i am just flaring too late, or i am too slow (aiming for 11 degr aoa every time), idk, i am just a hobby viper pilot 

 

just assuming -

you probably make/made the same mistakes as I do. That is (I think) being to high when starting to flare, which leads to a hard touch down or - with throttle - to a long runway need...

[Baz000]

The rule of thumb I use for starting my flare is when the width of the runway gets to be as wide as my HUD frame, start the gradual flare so as not to exceed 13 degrees AOA and reduce engine power simultaneously.

 

Far away, the runway will look the same width with no discernible change... But as you fly closer and closer towards it, it will gradually start to grow in width faster and faster... As your over the runway overrun before reaching the threshold it will be around as wide as your HUD frame but it gets wider faster and faster as you approach touching down on it... At a certain point you even will notice the ground rushing around you.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Baz000

[Hiob]

1 minute ago, Baz000 said:

The rule of thumb I use for starting my flare is when the width of the runway gets to be as wide as my HUD frame, start the gradual flare so as not to exceed 13 degrees AOA and reduce engine power simultaneously.

Considering the vastly differnet runway width, that seems a bit unreliable to me...

One of those occasions where depth perception would really help!

[NWGJulian]

i guess there is a optimal AGL value for when to start the flare?

hmmm tbh i think i am flaring too late, not too early

[Baz000]

An alternative is put your flight path marker on the threshold marking of the runway, when you notice the indication of ground rush, begin your flare... Bring the flight path marker up towards just a tad below the horizon line but don't level the plane out or you will float excessively. The idea is to land not where the threshold is but further down about 500 ft or so.

Apparently if you ride 13 degrees AOA all the way down you will float the plane less in the flare, than if you fly 11 and flare to 13... It mentions something about that in the dash 1... I think 11 was a float of around 800ft and 13 puts you at a float of around 500ft. It was a few hundred feet difference.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Baz000

[NWGJulian]

btw. in chucks guide, he says: „Gently pull back on the stick to flare and reduce the descent rate. DO NOT level off!“

i find this very interesting, and i think that is why i pull the throttle fwd a tiny bit -> because i actually want to level off; i thought its the whole point of the flare to get a very very smooth and light landing? its just floating for a very short time, very close from the ground.

of course, it increases the needed runway a little bit. but i never had a problem with the length of the rw in the viper, and it feels a lot better this way

Edited October 21, 2021 by NWGJulian

[Hiob]

20 hours ago, Mover said:

 

At around 750-1000 ft prior to the threshold, adjust your aimpoint to a point 300-500ft down the runway. 

 

In theory, that should result in the correct altitude for flaring. Probably depends heavily on how accurate ones final approach was overall.

I mean, if everything is done by the book or better how mover exemplified, one should end up where desired. (I guess! ...need to practice a lot...)

[Airhunter]

Did some pattern work the other day , is it just me or is the default seat position realy off for landing? If you fly a 13AOA approach or flare from 11 to 13 the flight path marker and bracket disappear at the bottom of the HUD. You'd really need to crank that seat up to have a proper HUD view but this results in an unrealistically high seating position. I haven't sat in a real Viper cockpit myself so I have no real judgement on what is correct or not but going off some pictures online etc. it does seem strange that the HUD would be this hard to read in a high AOA, landing config. 

[Hiob]

6 minutes ago, Airhunter said:

Did some pattern work the other day , is it just me or is the default seat position realy off for landing? If you fly a 13AOA approach or flare from 11 to 13 the flight path marker and bracket disappear at the bottom of the HUD. You'd really need to crank that seat up to have a proper HUD view but this results in an unrealistically high seating position. I haven't sat in a real Viper cockpit myself so I have no real judgement on what is correct or not but going off some pictures online etc. it does seem strange that the HUD would be this hard to read in a high AOA, landing config. 

On the EDIT: right(!) side of the cockpit is a switch to raise the seat elevation. I think, you're supposed to raise your seat before landing - for that exact reason.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Hiob

[Rakamora]

18 minutes ago, Airhunter said:

Did some pattern work the other day , is it just me or is the default seat position realy off for landing? If you fly a 13AOA approach or flare from 11 to 13 the flight path marker and bracket disappear at the bottom of the HUD. You'd really need to crank that seat up to have a proper HUD view but this results in an unrealistically high seating position. I haven't sat in a real Viper cockpit myself so I have no real judgement on what is correct or not but going off some pictures online etc. it does seem strange that the HUD would be this hard to read in a high AOA, landing config. 

I align my eyes with top of hud glass when on the ground. And I have no problem seeing the fpm or bracket at 13 AoA. I fly in VR.

[Airhunter]

25 minutes ago, Hiob said:

On the EDIT: right(!) side of the cockpit is a switch to raise the seat elevation. I think, you're supposed to raise your seat before landing - for that exact reason.

 

I am well aware and that's what I usually do. Just curious as to why you'd have to do it. Does it say anything in that regard in the manual?

[Hiob]

I think, I read it somewhere. Chuck's Guide perhaps.

Due to the angled position of the seat and the rather high AOA on landing, it is a special quirk of the Viper. I really don't now how it is in real live. If it depends on the size of the pilot e.g.

@Mover could probably tell us.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Hiob

[Carbon715]

On 10/19/2021 at 1:36 PM, CypherBlue said:

I love how arm chair pilots are arguing with someone who has actually flown a Viper and a Hornet.... The internet is a strange place. 

Haha I was thinking the same thing reading through

[rlm_easy]

5 hours ago, Carbon715 said:

Haha I was thinking the same thing reading through

I was rethinking the same But its kinda nice and helpfull that Mover makes the effort to help us mortals. Interesting Read

[Mover]

22 hours ago, Hiob said:

On the EDIT: right(!) side of the cockpit is a switch to raise the seat elevation. I think, you're supposed to raise your seat before landing - for that exact reason.

 

Yeah, no.

I always flew with the seat full down and never touched it.