yar Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Sorry, I'm actually comparing 1.1 with 1.12a. I haven't checked 1.02.ohh... i was talking about 1.02^^ because i think we should repleace the flight model of the 1.12 amraam with the 1.02 amraam... (but as i said im no shure about the slow-down-rate) i didnt know that there is a difference between the 1.1 and the 1.12a amraam :blink: (i did never play 1.1, because 1.12 was still out as i got fc) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 While the 120 is too slow and too short legged (and for that matter, so is the 77), the real problem is with the chaff sensitivity, as well as some other rudimentary physicsy things both with the missiles and the aircraft that launch them - all this affects BVR combat. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Scythe Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 This horse...has been beaten to death SO MUCH...that it's probably in the 8th dimension right now. If the afterlife was real, it would have 8 halos. The poor horse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tflash Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 Right, but in the particular case of the Amraam the chaff sensitivity which is affecting all missiles is compounded and aggravated due to the lower speed. It often means the chaff is still in the - farther away and thus wider - FOV cone of the missile, whereas the R-77 which is already closer only "sees" the target aircraft. This can be shown in Tacview. Oops -- didn't see your post D-Scythe, lets drop it indeed! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S77th-GOYA Posted February 6, 2008 Share Posted February 6, 2008 This horse...has been beaten to death SO MUCH...that it's probably in the 8th dimension right now. If the afterlife was real, it would have 8 halos. The poor horse... But it's a really bad horse. :smilewink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sidewinder Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 This horse...has been beaten to death SO MUCH...that it's probably in the 8th dimension right now. If the afterlife was real, it would have 8 halos. The poor horse... It isn't a horse....it's a cat!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RvEYoda Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 no it's granny in a wheelchair =( S = SPARSE(m,n) abbreviates SPARSE([],[],[],m,n,0). This generates the ultimate sparse matrix, an m-by-n all zero matrix. - Matlab help on 'sparse' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yar Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 so, my calculations are done, here are the results: -- The Difference between the Aim-120 "AMRAAM" in LO:FC 1.1 and 1.12 -- ( i couldnt compare the amraam in 1.02, because tacview cant record 1.02 flights, but as i said: the amraam is 300 kmh faster than in 1.12 ) __________________________________ ++ NOTE: all calculations here cant be 100% exact, because tacview can cause small variations! ++ __________________________________ ## General Informations ## Versions: Lock on - Flaming Cliffs 1.1 and 1.12a Plattform: F-15C Weather: Summer, +20°C, clear/sunny 1 Speedtest 1.1 Range (t) 1.2 Speed (t) 1.3 acceleration (t) 2 Missileintelligence ## 1 - SPEEDTEST ## This test shows, the range, which the missile is flying in a specific timeinterval ! this is not the range F-15 -> Missile ! its the range launchingposition -> missile ! (the jet is not a decisive factor) ! 1.1 - Range (t) 1.2 - Speed (t) 1.3 - Acceleration (t) ## 2 - Missileintelligence ## in fact this test was unscheduled - i wanted to take a look on missilespeedloose in a turningflight BUT as you can see in the following lines i was shure a look on the missileintelligence is more necessary - for this i have no diagram, but i can say you: its HORRIBLE!!! - the planed test was to place a Su33 11,8 km away from my eagle an fire a amraam, wait for the kill and analyse this. so, everything was ready and i fired the missile (1.1 first). after some seconds the missile hit and i switched to 1.12. Same mission, same playing. To be shure for a kill so i fired a 2nd amraam ~ 9 km away. and: first aim-120 missed the target :huh:, and the 2nd one too and this 11,8 kilometer away!!! ok, can happen -> restarting mission and 2nd try. As the run before i fired 2 amraams - first: 11,8 km away, second one a little bit later - and as before none of them hit :blink: but i needed a hit, so 3rd try but now i fired 5 amraams: 1. aim-120: 10,8 km away 2. aim-120: 10,0 km away 3. aim-120: 9,00 km away 4. aim-120: 9,05 km away 5. aim-120: 8,00 km away -> this missile was the onlies hit! holy sh*t! 5 fired missiles and only 1 hit!!! and this 11,8 km away from the bandit!!!! ============================================ ### Conclusion ### ============================================ the aim-120 in lock on - FC 1.1 isnt realistic, but the aim-120 is horrible! the 1.1 aim-120 is 300 kmh faster and - thats the main thing - (more) intelligent. the aim-120 in 1.12 is much to slow, and less intelligent than a stone :doh: for a kill in the same situation you 5 amraams (1.12) but only one in 1.1 -> guys, this missile sucks realy!! so, i hope you can see the differnece between 1.1 and 1.12, if there are some ( ive done the same tests 8.000m high, but i didnt analyse them yet, if some want the results, ask me and i will finish them ;) ) greetz, bm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
159th_Viper Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X-man Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 1.2 - Speed (t) 1.3 - Acceleration (t) How can the acceleration be positive if the speed is falling? 64th Aggressor Squadron Discord: 64th Aggressor Squadron TS: 135.181.115.54 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Because it isn't useful to use the negative part of the axis in this case. Yar, add the R-77. In addition, you don't need tacview. Simply launch the missile straight and watch the speed and sime it in externals, slowed down. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yar Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 In addition, you don't need tacview. Simply launch the missile straight and watch the speed and sime it in externals, slowed down.yes, you can 'move' the time forward/backwards :) Yar, add the R-77.you want the difference between R-77 (1.1) and R-77 (1.12) ? if yes, i can do this the next days.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sidewinder Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Yar, Very good test yar, the test I did many moons ago wasn't as indepth as yours. And that certainly explains why if I fire 1-2 AIM-120 within 10 miles a lot of the times you don't get a kill. X-man, On the chart from what I see , is once the accel stops the speed starts to drop also. The accel and speed stops after about 8 seconds, it looks right to me....maybe I'm just seeing things....someone else chime in please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 And R77 with AMRAAM. And there's no need to move the time :D yes, you can 'move' the time forward/backwards :) you want the difference between R-77 (1.1) and R-77 (1.12) ? if yes, i can do this the next days.. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yar Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 And R77 with AMRAAM.:blink: do you mean: all 4 missiles (both missiles in 1.1 and 1.12) in one diagram, or the 1.1 r77 with the 1.1 aim-120 .. or how?^^ And there's no need to move the time travel in time is everytime usefull, but logical not doable^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GGTharos Posted February 7, 2008 Share Posted February 7, 2008 Present it however you like :D [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Driver Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 I will be very interested to see how other missiles compare. It might be interesting to do AMRAAM v. Sparrow or AMRAAM v. R-27RT or AMRAAM v. MICA. Of course, AMRAAM v. Adder is the big one we're all waiting for. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] If you fly a perfect Defensive BFM and the bandit does a perfect Offensive... Someone you know is going to be recieving Insurance money very soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RvEYoda Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 I will be very interested to see how other missiles compare. It might be interesting to do AMRAAM v. Sparrow or AMRAAM v. R-27RT or AMRAAM v. MICA. Of course, AMRAAM v. Adder is the big one we're all waiting for. Adder is like 5-10% better range, nothing major. Imo it's more interesting is the lack of loft course and how missiles fare at different altitudes ;) S = SPARSE(m,n) abbreviates SPARSE([],[],[],m,n,0). This generates the ultimate sparse matrix, an m-by-n all zero matrix. - Matlab help on 'sparse' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Scythe Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Adder is like 5-10% better range, nothing major. Imo it's more interesting is the lack of loft course and how missiles fare at different altitudes ;) The R-77's stated 5-10% range advantage was over the non-lofting AIM-120A. Things are probably different if we start talking about the AIM-120B/C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sidewinder Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Adder is like 5-10% better range, nothing major. Imo it's more interesting is the lack of loft course and how missiles fare at different altitudes ;) 5-10% better range is major, especially when life and death is involved. An extra 1,500 could mean being dead or alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RvEYoda Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 That is the lockon numbers. I have no clue about the real thing :) Also Lockon amraam doesn't loft S = SPARSE(m,n) abbreviates SPARSE([],[],[],m,n,0). This generates the ultimate sparse matrix, an m-by-n all zero matrix. - Matlab help on 'sparse' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle Driver Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 And range isn't all that important without speed, which we've clearly seen to be woefully inadequate in the AMRAAM, particularly the 20g deceleration piece. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] If you fly a perfect Defensive BFM and the bandit does a perfect Offensive... Someone you know is going to be recieving Insurance money very soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RvEYoda Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 And range isn't all that important without speed, which we've clearly seen to be woefully inadequate in the AMRAAM, particularly the 20g deceleration piece. :joystick: Things even up though with the "dodge-by-accident" factor of Lo ;) S = SPARSE(m,n) abbreviates SPARSE([],[],[],m,n,0). This generates the ultimate sparse matrix, an m-by-n all zero matrix. - Matlab help on 'sparse' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sidewinder Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Yes, speed is more important, but the *other* missile has both advantages over the 120. If one has better range then you would thnk the speed is better also. I know they have different burn times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RvEYoda Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 Yes, speed is more important, but the *other* missile has both advantages over the 120. If one has better range then you would thnk the speed is better also. I know they have different burn times. 120 smokeless. They have different advantages in Lo, but if we had both loft and smokeless slammer....hehe....things would be a lot easier for the 15 ;) Oh and dont forget proper gimbal limits in search mode (current Lo eagle search bvr is limited to -30 deg down, once you have a lock though it goes to -60 :P) S = SPARSE(m,n) abbreviates SPARSE([],[],[],m,n,0). This generates the ultimate sparse matrix, an m-by-n all zero matrix. - Matlab help on 'sparse' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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