STT AIM-54 Launch Warning - off the rail

[Spiceman]

Also, how do you know this given it's classified?

 

It’s not classified. The -1A has been declassified for quite a while. They’re just very hard to find. vCVW-11 actually tried to FOIA a copy from NAVAIRSYSCOM. They didn’t deny the request, they simply said that they could not locate one. One came up on EBay a while back and someone (cough cough) snagged it.

[Airhunter]

This is simply incorrect. Not trying to be rude, but your comment is not correct. The AWG-9 can both guide the AIM-54 via an STT lock AND send target data via antenna on the back of the AIM-54 and signal it to go active. That's just how it works. Feel free to prove me wrong with actual SME quotations on the matter. Also, you can see from TLTeo's comment above that IronMike clearly states that STT locks help guide the AIM-54, which means it is also actively guiding itself as well.

 

TLTeo, i believe IronMike is referring to shots inside 15 miles, which would be active off the rail since 54's go active at 15 miles in DCS right now. I believe that should actually be closer to 10 miles... but why fix something like that when there's a bunch more to fix regarding missile guidance.

 

Yeah, no. https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=251618

[Naquaii]

The AWG-9 guides the AIM-54 Phoenix using semi-active illumination as well as data-link commands also transmitted by the AWG-9.

 

For TWS it guides the missiles semi-actively until 16 secs time to impact at which time it sends an active command to the missile telling it to go active. In TWS the missiles continues sweeping the search volume and when sweeping past the missiles it injects data-link commands as well.

 

For PD-STT it never sends the active command as it can illuminate the target until impact and the missile will continue semi-active all the way to the target.

 

For short range shots (<10nm) the missile will be commanded to go active at launch. This also happens if the missile is fired in a radar mode that cannot send commands to the missile, i.e. all the pulse modes and ACM modes.

 

As for launch warnings you'd not get one until the missile goes active in TWS mode while in STT mode you'll get one at launch as the AWG-9 will be directly locked onto you and transmitting missile data-link commands continuously.

 

We have declassified manuals describing this in detail for the AIM-54A. It's entirely possible that this changed for the -C but as we do not have the same data for that missile we're modelling it the same way until better information is available.

 

Currently this is not correct in DCS as we've had to limit it to the same logic as the AIM-120. This is going to change though as we're currently testing changes ED has helped us with, giving us command of missile loft and if and when the missile goes active.

 

Edit: Losing a track will not immediately trash the missile as the WCS will still guide it towards the last calculated position and send the active command when at calculated 16 secs TTI.

Edited October 7, 2019 by Naquaii

[FWind]

It’s not classified. The -1A has been declassified for quite a while. They’re just very hard to find. vCVW-11 actually tried to FOIA a copy from NAVAIRSYSCOM. They didn’t deny the request, they simply said that they could not locate one. One came up on EBay a while back and someone (cough cough) snagged it.

 

 

great！

[Bearfoot]

The AWG-9 guides the AIM-54 Phoenix using semi-active illumination as well as data-link commands also transmitted by the AWG-9.

 

For TWS it guides the missiles semi-actively until 16 secs time to impact at which time it sends an active command to the missile telling it to go active. In TWS the missiles continues sweeping the search volume and when sweeping past the missiles it injects data-link commands as well.

 

For PD-STT it never sends the active command as it can illuminate the target until impact and the missile will continue semi-active all the way to the target.

 

For short range shots (<10nm) the missile will be commanded to go active at launch. This also happens if the missile is fired in a radar mode that cannot send commands to the missile, i.e. all the pulse modes and ACM modes.

 

As for launch warnings you'd not get one until the missile goes active in TWS mode while in STT mode you'll get one at launch as the AWG-9 will be directly locked onto you and transmitting missile data-link commands continuously.

 

We have declassified manuals describing this in detail for the AIM-54A. It's entirely possible that this changed for the -C but as we do not have the same data for that missile we're modelling it the same way until better information is available.

 

Currently this is not correct in DCS as we've had to limit it to the same logic as the AIM-120. This is going to change though as we're currently testing changes ED has helped us with, giving us command of missile loft and if and when the missile goes active.

 

Edit: Losing a track will not immediately trash the missile as the WCS will still guide it towards the last calculated position and send the active command when at calculated 16 secs TTI.

 

Can we get some clarification on the last, i.e. "Losing a track will not immediately trash the missile as the WCS will still guide it towards the last calculated position and send the active command when at calculated 16 secs TTI"?

 

(1) Is this behavior currently modeled and will it be the same after the whole missile thing is fixed? (i.e., is it correct and implemented, incorrect but implemented, correct but not implemented)?

 

(2) I assume that this while under TWS guidance only?

[Spiceman]

It’s modeled. You can test it by taking a shot at a bandit and immediately turning the AWG-9 off or to Stby. The Phoenix will stop lofting and fly in a straight line to the last known location of the bandit. It will go active and when it’s close enough, if the bandit is in the Phoenix radar cone, it will start guiding.

 

There is some weird bug in DCS whereby if you take shot in TWS, the bandit doesn’t react/maneuver against it, but it does start popping chaff. Not sure what’s going on there. The bandit starts maneuvering when the Phoenix goes active at about 16 TTI.

Edited June 28, 2020 by Spiceman

[Bearfoot]

It’s modeled. You can test it by taking a shot at a bandit and immediately turning the AWG-9 off or to Stby. The Phoenix will stop lofting and fly in a straight line to the last known location of the bandit. It will go active and when it’s close enough, if the bandit is in the Phoenix radar cone, it will start guiding.

 

There is some weird bug in DCS whereby if you take shot in TWS, the bandit doesn’t react/maneuver against it, but it does start popping chaff. Not sure what’s going on there. The bandit starts maneuvering when the Phoenix goes active at about 16 TTI.

 

Thanks!

 

If a missile is fired on a contact in TWS mode, and the contact is dropped and then reacquired a little bit later (in particular, before the missile goes active), then does the missile "return" to guidance? Or does it continue blindly on its straight line course to the last known location (which it started when the contact was dropped)?

[Spiceman]

When a Phoenix is in the air, Track Hold is enabled and the AWG-9 will put the track in coast mode until a new track file can be created. If the track is re-acquired, the AWG-9 may or (more likely) may not be able correlate the new track with the old track and most likely the Phoenix will continue to be guided to the held track file. That’s my understanding, but the devs can correct me if I’m wrong.

Edited June 28, 2020 by Spiceman

[Bearfoot]

When a Phoenix is in the air, Track Hold is enabled and the AWG-9 will put the track in coast mode until a new track file can be created. If the track is re-acquired, the AWG-9 may or (more likely) may not be able correlate the new track with the old track and most likely the Phoenix will continue to be guided to the held track file. That’s my understanding, but the devs can correct me if I’m wrong.

 

(1) Is there any way to figure out what the case might be from the cockpit? That is, whether or not the first missile is still guiding onto a (reacquired) contact?

 

(2) Also (and I'm pretty to sure the answers to all if thiese are "no", but just to check), does this track-correlation to reacquired track + resuming of guidance apply:

• to STT-launched missiles
  
• Going from STT to TWS? That is a missile launched on an STT lock, and then supporting aircraft switches to TWS, acquiring contact again?
  
• Going from TWS to STT? That is a missile launched on an TWS track and then the supporting aircraft locks the contact in STT?
  

Edited June 29, 2020 by Bearfoot

[Spiceman]

The answer is no to all of those. The guidance mode of the missile is set during the LTE cycle and it doesn’t change once in the air. That, and the AWG-9 makes no correlation between an STT’ed target and a TWS track.

[rahimystrio]

The AWG-9 guides the AIM-54 Phoenix using semi-active illumination as well as data-link commands also transmitted by the AWG-9.

 

For TWS it guides the missiles semi-actively until 16 secs time to impact at which time it sends an active command to the missile telling it to go active. In TWS the missiles continues sweeping the search volume and when sweeping past the missiles it injects data-link commands as well.

 

For PD-STT it never sends the active command as it can illuminate the target until impact and the missile will continue semi-active all the way to the target.

 

For short range shots (<10nm) the missile will be commanded to go active at launch. This also happens if the missile is fired in a radar mode that cannot send commands to the missile, i.e. all the pulse modes and ACM modes.

 

As for launch warnings you'd not get one until the missile goes active in TWS mode while in STT mode you'll get one at launch as the AWG-9 will be directly locked onto you and transmitting missile data-link commands continuously.

 

We have declassified manuals describing this in detail for the AIM-54A. It's entirely possible that this changed for the -C but as we do not have the same data for that missile we're modelling it the same way until better information is available.

 

Currently this is not correct in DCS as we've had to limit it to the same logic as the AIM-120. This is going to change though as we're currently testing changes ED has helped us with, giving us command of missile loft and if and when the missile goes active.

 

Edit: Losing a track will not immediately trash the missile as the WCS will still guide it towards the last calculated position and send the active command when at calculated 16 secs TTI.

 

It’s modeled. You can test it by taking a shot at a bandit and immediately turning the AWG-9 off or to Stby. The Phoenix will stop lofting and fly in a straight line to the last known location of the bandit. It will go active and when it’s close enough, if the bandit is in the Phoenix radar cone, it will start guiding.

 

There is some weird bug in DCS whereby if you take shot in TWS, the bandit doesn’t react/maneuver against it, but it does start popping chaff. Not sure what’s going on there. The bandit starts maneuvering when the Phoenix goes active at about 16 TTI.

 

its not how it correctly works in DCS. shots in TWS even way outside of active range only need radar support for lofting. if track is lost but radar mode is still in TWS ( so track hold is active) missile will still track as it knows what target is doing although it will cancel lofting. for example if you shoot a target at 40miles and turn cold, as long as you dont switch out of tws modes, missile will keep tracking target and manouver based on what target is doing. target can change heading, altitiude and even try to mask but phoenix will keep tracking it as it has radar support. only if you switch out of TWS modes or die before missile is active, missile will fly straight and search with its own radar, which in multiplayer can cause desync which means shooter will see different missile behaviour than other players. about STT launches, they wont track like semi active missile and missile will always go active when its inside active range and defender only needs to notch aim54 radar. another error is that you can shoot and guide phoenix in pulse modes, which according to manual should not be possible. last important missing function is PH active switch wont make phoenix to able to switch between awg-9 and its own radar. although idk if it can switch back to awg-9 after it finds target by its own radar( like if target notches 54 radar) in real life

[SgtPappy]

The answer is no to all of those. The guidance mode of the missile is set during the LTE cycle and it doesn’t change once in the air. That, and the AWG-9 makes no correlation between an STT’ed target and a TWS track.

 

From STT to TWS should be impossible, that makes sense to me. But for TWS to STT, consider this scenario:

 

1) Target knows there is an F-14 tracking it and decides to notch, coincidentally, as the F-14 launches an AIM-54A (let's say that because Heatblur said they have this data while the C guidance is still not all unclassified) at > say, 20 nm

 

2) The AWG-9 goes into 2 min track hold mode (putting an "X" over the track because it lost the notching contact)

 

3) The target ends up being detected again but at this point it is a different track (the "true" track) because it moved away from the assumed track hold "X" track.

 

So the RIO decides to use the likelier track by correlating the new, true track to the DDD and STT's the DDD. I have heard in this case the AIM-54A falls back to STT/datalink.

 

To me, this means that it could forget about the track hold target and any launched AIM-54 will default to the STT launch if there is no "true" track. Is this a correct understanding?

 

Also as suggested above, you could turn away from the target at any time because the "track hold" function will still allow the AIM-54 to guide to the best guess target. Is this true? Does track hold not still need the AWG-9 cone around the track hold target? As i understand, the AWG-9 turning completely away from a track hold track would make that track disappear.

[Spiceman]

So the RIO decides to use the likelier track by correlating the new, true track to the DDD and STT's the DDD. I have heard in this case the AIM-54A falls back to STT/datalink.

 

To me, this means that it could forget about the track hold target and any launched AIM-54 will default to the STT launch if there is no "true" track. Is this a correct understanding?

 

The missile in flight will not change what it’s doing. Any future launch will be SARH against your STT’ed target.

 

Also as suggested above, you could turn away from the target at any time because the "track hold" function will still allow the AIM-54 to guide to the best guess target. Is this true? Does track hold not still need the AWG-9 cone around the track hold target? As i understand, the AWG-9 turning completely away from a track hold track would make that track disappear.

 

You could turn away, get shot down, turn the radar off, what have you and the missile in flight will continue to fly to the last known target location and go active at 16 TTI and chase whatever it sees.

[Sam]

When a Phoenix is in the air, Track Hold is enabled and the AWG-9 will put the track in coast mode until a new track file can be created. If the track is re-acquired, the AWG-9 may or (more likely) may not be able correlate the new track with the old track and most likely the Phoenix will continue to be guided to the held track file. That’s my understanding, but the devs can correct me if I’m wrong.

 

Most of the time when I crank after missile launch, the AWG-9 loses the current track and quickly creates a new one for the same target, and the same happens if the target starts maneuvring/changing direction. So if the AWG-9 can't correlate them, it's going to be very difficult to hit anything :noexpression:

 

For example, I launch a phoenix on a target flanking right, but while the missile is in the air before 16s TTI, the target makes a sharp turn and is now flanking left. If I understand, with a quick change in direction, the AWG-9 will switch to track hold on the old track flanking right, and create a new track flanking left. In that case, if it can't correlate the 2 tracks, I guess the missile is lost with a simple turn ?

Edited June 29, 2020 by Panther 976

[Spiceman]

It’s not lost, and it will continue to fly to the last known target location and unless the target did some pretty drastic maneuvering the Phoenix will very likely find it. The target will not have any warning until it’s most likely too late.

[SgtPappy]

It’s not lost, and it will continue to fly to the last known target location and unless the target did some pretty drastic maneuvering the Phoenix will very likely find it. The target will not have any warning until it’s most likely too late.

 

That's the ideal case. Far away enough, it seems that right now you can simply beam and split-S because that way you're in the maneuvering plane of the beam. You've changed direction completely and the AWG-9 is none the wiser by sticking with a track in the complete opposite direction. I'm no expert, but I think this is realistic behaviour.

[Spiceman]

The Phoenix and the AWG-9 have done their jobs there as well, right?

[Dudikoff]

It’s modeled. You can test it by taking a shot at a bandit and immediately turning the AWG-9 off or to Stby. The Phoenix will stop lofting and fly in a straight line to the last known location of the bandit. It will go active and when it’s close enough, if the bandit is in the Phoenix radar cone, it will start guiding.

 

Wasn't the AWG-9 supposed to tell the missile when to go active via a DL message?

[near_blind]

Wasn't the AWG-9 supposed to tell the missile when to go active via a DL message?

 

For the AIM-54A at least, yes. This is one of the things that should be addressed when the missile API opens up.

[QuiGon]

For the AIM-54A at least, yes. This is one of the things that should be addressed when the missile API opens up.

AFAIK it's already been adressed internally, as the new missile API is already available to third party devs. Unfortunately there seems to be issues with that in multiplayer, which is why the Phoenix rework hasn't been released yet.

[Spiceman]

They have the missile hard-coded to go active at 16 TTI as a workaround for the moment, I believe.

[SgtPappy]

The Phoenix and the AWG-9 have done their jobs there as well, right?

 

If you mean that they're making the target go defensive right away you're right! not sure how close an AWG-9 would have to be to pick up a fighter-sized target in the notch because right now, you can hide from an F-14 all the way to 5 nm if you notch juuust right. You'd probably have much more knowledge being an SME, would you happen to know if that's realistic?

 

However even in this game, the hard part of course is for the target to stay hidden! Does anyone know if E-2 datalink could be fed to the Tomcat and then to the AIM-54?

Edited July 3, 2020 by SgtPappy