Clarification/Reason for AoA shake adjustment?

[Bearfoot]

I know this was adjusted in the last patch so that the buffetting/shaking starts at a higher AoA.

 

Just curious as to the reason for this adjustment. Was it unrealistic in starting to shake so early? Did SME feedback indicate this? If Heatblur doesn't mind sharing, it would satisfy curiousity as well as give great insight into the development/improvement process.

 

Thing is, many of us were using the shake as a good indicator as to when we were on near-but-not-quite-there on the edge. VERY useful for BFM and other maneuvering to keep track of AoA without taking eyes from the outside. With this gone, we have to resort to to other means! But if that's how the real plane flew, than that's how we want it to fly ...

Edited September 8, 2019 by Bearfoot

[captain_dalan]

...But if that's how the real plane flew, than that's how we want it to fly ...

Or provide alternative form of feedback. This was the only plane in DCS that "talked".

 

As it's not FBW and it has a temperamental attitude, flying it without feedback is like flying it blind.

Edited September 7, 2019 by captain_dalan

[nighthawk2174]

+1

[SandMan23]

I find that the Cat still talks to you and replies with ample feed back or "buffet". The fact that it no longer flies a like a school bus at 13 AoA and rattles my teeth out at 13 and ~only 4 Gs is a plus.

 

Given HBs attention to detail and input from various SMEs with real life experience, I don't believe they would be taking us down an unrealistic FM path.

[AcroGimp]

Agree with others, very disappointed with latest patch (UNLESS it was based on significant amounts of SME input and not in reply to more casual 'gamer' demands for a less challenging FM).

 

This would seem to be at odds with previous statements that the level of feedback being provided was 'understated if anything'.

 

I loved the way the Tomcat communicated energy state in the last patch, it was the only aircraft in the entire DCS ecosystem that truly 'talked' and felt 'alive', and this update has, disappointingly, neutered the vast majority of that wonderful feel and critical feedback.

 

Certainly hope there is a return to something more like the previous feel, again, unless this change was based on significant SME input.

 

DISCO

[Larkis]

I also liked the old system. :)

[Airhunter]

I agree. Wonder when they'll finally settle on a fm that fits their SME feeback and perf. graphs. Currently the pitch changes with power, flaps and speedbrake deployment that change with every update are kinda offputting.

[captain_dalan]

I find that the Cat still talks to you and replies with ample feed back or "buffet".

 

Prey tell then, how do you know you are in a sustained turn now, without looking at the instruments? :music_whistling:

 

(UNLESS it was based on significant amounts of SME input and not in reply to more casual 'gamer' demands for a less challenging FM).

DISCO

 

I doubt it was the SME's

From a not allowed to be stated source of info:

"characterized by the onset of light air frame buffet at 12 to 13 units AOA. This increases to moderate intensity at 15 units AOA with essentially no change in intensity at AOA as high as 60.... If deceleration is continued to full aft stick deflection, AOA will stabilize at approximately 35 to 45 (deg)....Maneuver flaps and slats delay buffet onset to 13 to 14 units AOA and reduce the magnitude of buffet in high AOA flight..."

 

Right now, perceivable buffeting doesn't start till around 20 units AoA, flaps deployed or not.

 

I agree. Wonder when they'll finally settle on a fm that fits their SME feeback and perf. graphs. Currently the pitch changes with power, flaps and speedbrake deployment that change with every update are kinda offputting.

 

Agreed, shelved the bird for the time being. I bit of a payed vacation from DCS was in order anyways. :thumbup:

[TLTeo]

If they are going to cater to people's complaints that there's too much shaking, imo the best way to do it is just add a slider like for the Mig 21.

[fat creason]

I increased the buffet onset AOA by about 2 units and decreased the rate at which it comes in according to SME feedback.

[AcroGimp]

Thanks for the explanation fat creason, can/should we expect continued fine tuning?

 

 

Really liked the last version but I defer to SME input.

 

 

DISCO

[Bearfoot]

I increased the buffet onset AOA by about 2 units and decreased the rate at which it comes in according to SME feedback.

 

Thanks for the clarification. Appreciate you taking the time to respond. If the new model is more in line with the SME input, then so be it!

 

Of course, if we can be open to the possibility of a user-adjustable "shake intensity", a la Mig-21, to compensate for lack of a but meter ... that would be great too!

[captain_dalan]

I increased the buffet onset AOA by about 2 units and decreased the rate at which it comes in according to SME feedback.

 

I stand corrected then :huh:

 

 

Of course, if we can be open to the possibility of a user-adjustable "shake intensity", a la Mig-21, to compensate for lack of a but meter ... that would be great too!

 

Seconded :thumbup:

Right now she feels.....scratch that, she doesn't really feel in any way as i don't have any FFB apparatus available (nor will i in any foreseeable future)

[vadupleix]

Has the FFB been changed as well? I don’t feel like it’s much of a difference now and I can still maintain a 15 units of AoA using the FFB cue.

If the FFB logic has not been changed yet, do you plan to change that in later patches?

Thanks!

[METEOP]

Took her around for a few skirmishes after the latest patch.

 

I did notice the buffeting was less intense but I did out-turn a flanker in a downward spiral without thinking too much about it.

 

Somehow it seems more natural now, in that if you stay within the envelope you have some cue that your just at the edge but still within parameters, without feeling like the thing will come apart.

 

Then I dodged an IR missile fired at me from behind and probably pulled 25+ units. Yep it was definitely shaking!

[captain_dalan]

Took her around for a few skirmishes after the latest patch.

 

I did notice the buffeting was less intense but I did out-turn a flanker in a downward spiral without thinking too much about it.

 

Somehow it seems more natural now, in that if you stay within the envelope you have some cue that your just at the edge but still within parameters, without feeling like the thing will come apart.

 

Then I dodged an IR missile fired at me from behind and probably pulled 25+ units. Yep it was definitely shaking!

Nah, the AI Flanker can be out turned with nothing but stick movement and a 90% throttle input, one hand behind your back, no rudder input. Try that against those feisty Hornets and Mirages online and it's a different game all together..... :thumbup:

[draconus]

Nah, the AI Flanker can be out turned with nothing but stick movement and a 90% throttle input, one hand behind your back, no rudder input. Try that against those feisty Hornets and Mirages online and it's a different game all together..... :thumbup:

Yeah, somehow the Flanker AI is easy but Mig-29 or F-16 (from NTTR IA missions) will make you sweat.

[captain_dalan]

Yeah, somehow the Flanker AI is easy but Mig-29 or F-16 (from NTTR IA missions) will make you sweat.

Indeed....i always wondered if different planes have different AI scripts in DCS? :huh:

[draconus]

Indeed....i always wondered if different planes have different AI scripts in DCS? :huh:

They all use their own SFM and probably the same AI based rather on the type of aircraft. But they certainly fly different based on total weight and available thrust.

[skullicious]

I'm really struggling with this iteration of the shake/AOA...

 

I'll be pulling and I see the buffet (or hear it), I look down to check my airspeed and that I'm at corner/15 AOA and I've dropped below corner and above 15 AOA whereas before it seemed to shake earlier and give me time to adjust.

 

If that's how it really was that's cool but it makes it a loss less intuitive to fly.

[draconus]

If that's how it really was that's cool but it makes it a loss less intuitive to fly.

We've been given the answer already:

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=4032067&postcount=10

[Victory205]

I'm really struggling with this iteration of the shake/AOA...

 

I'll be pulling and I see the buffet (or hear it), I look down to check my airspeed and that I'm at corner/15 AOA and I've dropped below corner and above 15 AOA whereas before it seemed to shake earlier and give me time to adjust.

 

If that's how it really was that's cool but it makes it a loss less intuitive to fly.

 

15 units is above sustained AOA and will tend to bleed energy depending upon altitude, weight and drag load out.

[Bearfoot]

I'm really struggling with this iteration of the shake/AOA...

 

I'll be pulling and I see the buffet (or hear it), I look down to check my airspeed and that I'm at corner/15 AOA and I've dropped below corner and above 15 AOA whereas before it seemed to shake earlier and give me time to adjust.

 

If that's how it really was that's cool but it makes it a loss less intuitive to fly.

 

According to 01-F14AAP-1:

Buffet starts at 16 to 18 units AOA and wing rock at 26 units AOA.

 

but/and

 

The 1 g level stall (maneuver flaps/slats retracted) is characterized by the onset of light airframe buffet at 12 to 13 units AOA. This increases to moderate intensity at 15 units AOA with essentially no change in intensity at AOA as high as 60 deg. Buffet is not a satisfactory cue to determine airspeed or AOA during high AOA maneuvering

Edited September 13, 2019 by Bearfoot