Switching between P-STT and PD-STT cause loss of lock

[Rabbisaur]

Dear HB developers,

 

There might be a possible bug when you switch between STT modes. At least when Jester switch between radar modes.

 

If you have a target in PD-STT and you crank to either left or right over about 30 degrees. Then when you switch to P-STT or Jester automatically switch to P-STT when the target is about entering 10 miles range. The lock will break. But if you put the target within ~30 degree cone in front the lock can be maintained.

 

I guess this might be a bug. As the switching between P-STT and PD-STT should not cause radar antenna to turn to the center.

 

Could you please look into this. Thanks!

Edited September 9, 2019 by Rabbisaur

[Rabbisaur]

Can anyone say something about this? When you have a PD-STT lock and when you switch to P-STT. The HUD will flash and the time when the HUD goes off and back on seems depends on the angular distance between you and the target. The higher the angle the longer the flash. And if the angle is too high (~>30 degrees), although it is still well with in the gimbal limit of the radar, you will lose STT.

 

As if when you switch between PD-STT and STT, the radar first reset to the centre and then slew to the target again...

 

Is this how it works on the real F-14 or it is a little bug?

[Rabbisaur]

Hi, I wish to know whether this is true in real F-14B radar system or this is a small bug. Switching between P-STT and PD-STT cause loss of track when bearing of the target is greater than about 30 degrees. It is very annoying because it keeps you away from ideal cranking angel.

 

Also, why does Jester have to switch to P-STT within 10 NM?

Edited September 12, 2019 by Rabbisaur

[saburo_cz]

Also, why does Jester have to switch to P-STT within 10 NM?

I can not say why, but i switch it OFF in Options.

Jester switches between PD-STT and P-STT only on my order, no after AIM-7 launch as he often does.

 

Not ideal solution, but it works...

[Rabbisaur]

I can not say why, but i switch it OFF in Options.

Jester switches between PD-STT and P-STT only on my order, no after AIM-7 launch as he often does.

 

Not ideal solution, but it works...

 

Wow, you can turn it off now in the options, thank you so much! I didn't notice that.

[lunaticfringe]

It's been there since release, yo. ;)

[Rabbisaur]

Thanks for directing me to the options. But it still cannot answer my first question. When switching between P-STT and PD-STT the nose of the aircraft must point to the target. Is it also true on the real F-14B?

[Rabbisaur]

Radar gimbal reset and lose of lock when switching between P-STT PD-STT is a serious problem in combat. I wish to know if this is a bug in the radar coding or it is intended.

 

Thanks!

[Rabbisaur]

Any information on this? Do you think this is a bug? Switching between P-STT and PD-STT while nose is within 15~30 degree cone to target is fine, if outside 15~30 degree cone but still within radar gimbal limit you will lose lock.

 

Is this a bug?

[Rabbisaur]

Poke.

 

Do you think this is a bug?

[IronMike]

Hey Rabbisaur, sorry for the late reply.

 

It's likely that a cranking target when switching could drop off the radar just enough to lose the lock. I would say I doubt it is a bug, but at the same time it's worth to take a look. At 60° I wouldn't, but at 30° it seems to me this should not happen. It is hard to say with these facts alone, a video or track would help to dig deaper.

 

What is the range rate, what is the target aspect. Does it happen only with Jester or also with a human RIO?

[Rabbisaur]

Hey Rabbisaur, sorry for the late reply.

 

It's likely that a cranking target when switching could drop off the radar just enough to lose the lock. I would say I doubt it is a bug, but at the same time it's worth to take a look. At 60° I wouldn't, but at 30° it seems to me this should not happen. It is hard to say with these facts alone, a video or track would help to dig deaper.

 

What is the range rate, what is the target aspect. Does it happen only with Jester or also with a human RIO?

 

Hi, IronMike.

 

Thank you very much for your reply.

 

I tried to make a video yesterday. But I found the problem less obvious since last update.

 

It still breaks lock when switching between the lock modes, but only when F14 is turning (within radar gimbal limit). I will try make a video soon. I'm a little busy recently and I've never made videos before. It will take some time....

 

I will update you with videos.

[IronMike]

Hi, IronMike.

 

Thank you very much for your reply.

 

I tried to make a video yesterday. But I found the problem less obvious since last update.

 

It still breaks lock when switching between the lock modes, but only when F14 is turning (within radar gimbal limit). I will try make a video soon. I'm a little busy recently and I've never made videos before. It will take some time....

 

I will update you with videos.

 

 

Thanks.

[Katj]

I feel like this happens all the time. Whenever I hear Jester say "switching to P-STT" I think "oh, no". I don't think this happens only when cranking. I think I've had it plenty of times when diving straight towards a target. I'm going to start paying more attention to the parameters whenever I get this.

 

On the other hand, now that I know you can disable the switching, I might do that instead, but that isn't quite right.

[Naquaii]

Hi!

 

Firstly, the transition between P and PD for STT is not a guaranteed thing, this is as it should be as the radar still needs to find the target in the other mode as well.

 

As for transitioning from P to PD it's a bit of a hazzle as PD has blind zones which the P modes doesn't. When at high angles it's more likely that the target will be in one of the deadzones but it should not be an automatic track loss.

Having the aircraft maneuvering during the transition also increases the risk of track loss.

 

I'll have a look at this and see if I can reproduce it, currently not sure if it is a bug or not.

[IronMike]

I feel like this happens all the time. Whenever I hear Jester say "switching to P-STT" I think "oh, no". I don't think this happens only when cranking. I think I've had it plenty of times when diving straight towards a target. I'm going to start paying more attention to the parameters whenever I get this.

 

On the other hand, now that I know you can disable the switching, I might do that instead, but that isn't quite right.

 

 

 

 

"diving on to target" is notching in the vertical vector as well and adding even ground clutter, which pulse mode does not like at all, in general if the switch happens during heavy maneuvering it is quite expected. I get ahead of Jester and tell him when to switch manually.

[Katj]

"diving on to target" is notching in the vertical vector as well and adding even ground clutter, which pulse mode does not like at all, in general if the switch happens during heavy maneuvering it is quite expected. I get ahead of Jester and tell him when to switch manually.

Sure, but I'm not talking about a very steep dive, perhaps 20 degrees, so there's not much of a notch. The point was that the target is straight ahead. There IS ground clutter, so maybe lock should be lost, but in that case I'd wish Jester didn't switch to pulse mode in look-down situations.

[IronMike]

Sure, but I'm not talking about a very steep dive, perhaps 20 degrees, so there's not much of a notch. The point was that the target is straight ahead. There IS ground clutter, so maybe lock should be lost, but in that case I'd wish Jester didn't switch to pulse mode in look-down situations.

 

 

 

 

Fair point, but you do have an option that disables that. I know, that's always a stupid thing to go either black or white, but maybe in the future we can improve his behavior to be a bit more cognitive about that. Even in a 20 degree dive it is probably not only ground clutter though, with both moving fast at close distances, it can also be that the target is lost by just "escaping" so to speak, if the closure rate is high and you travel in an angle and he in a straight line, you would have to keep adjusting your angle, that is increasing it to keep him on point of course, if that makes sense. Hence I prefer to switch to pstt early on already, then also ground clutter and maneuvers are not really a problem anymore, since we are not in search but STT.

Edited November 4, 2019 by IronMike

[Katj]

Fair point, but you do have an option that disables that. I know, that's always a stupid thing to go either black or white, but maybe in the future we can improve his behavior to be a bit more cognitive about that. Even in a 20 degree dive it is probably not only ground clutter though, with both moving fast at close distances, it can also be that the target is lost by just "escaping" so to speak, if the closure rate is high and you travel in an angle and he in a straight line, you would have to keep adjusting your angle, that is increasing it to keep him on point of course, if that makes sense. Hence I prefer to switch to pstt early on already, then also ground clutter and maneuvers are not really a problem anymore, since we are not in search but STT.

All right, disable switching or switch earlier as a work around, copy that.

 

Thank you for the tips. It's frustrating losing lock when the bandit is "right there!", and the TCS keeps tracking like it ain't no thing.

[IronMike]

All right, disable switching or switch earlier as a work around, copy that.

 

Thank you for the tips. It's frustrating losing lock when the bandit is "right there!", and the TCS keeps tracking like it ain't no thing.

 

 

It makes sense though, as the TCS track never gets broken in this process. While when switching STT, you basically turn one mode off and turn the other mode on, so there is a small "gap", and imagine how much a bandit travels when you say "fast", during that brief moment it can be displaced quite significantly at these speeds.

 

Personally, if I know it will be a 1vs1 STT engagemend, I switch at around 20nm.

[fl0w]

I believe hopefully soon with the Q4 updates that HB will release that we will get more explained reasons for "lost lock" and "unable" callouts from JESTER. So hopefully instead of hearing "UNABLE!!1!" we can get "we're in the notch zone man" and that's a better clue.

[IronMike]

I believe hopefully soon with the Q4 updates that HB will release that we will get more explained reasons for "lost lock" and "unable" callouts from JESTER. So hopefully instead of hearing "UNABLE!!1!" we can get "we're in the notch zone man" and that's a better clue.

 

 

We already started recording in this direction, albeit a bit different, in terms he will be more preemptive that he will suggest you to switch to the pilot acquisition modes, when RIO locks becomes unlikely at close ranges.

 

To really make him comment on why he cannot lock or so in any given moment, would probably be too complex and just blow the time frame.

 

But this change should already cut the "unable" calls significantly.