to the Dev: what's the future for AI and gameplay in Lockon?

[Kula66]

so can you please tell me why the page file dynamically increases and decreases when the pc is working (if he just needed to dump the ram you would set it as large as the ram itself, not larger!) and why many game/app manufacturers advise to have a page file available just for running the app (not to see the dump)?

 

2,500 clients or 2,500 servers? I don't think even my ISP has 2,500 servers :)

servers ... it was a international bank - and that was just in London!

 

All sorts of things can cause a page file to grow ... vary large amounts of data, or memory leaks (I suspect one somewhere in LockOn 1.02), memory mapped files ... if you have a page file, XP can push data out to disk freeing up memory for you app ... but with really large amounts of RAM it isn't necessary. XPs memory manager trims each process's working set over time, since its job is to minimise the amount RAM your apps are taking ... you often see pages pruned, then read back in 'cos the app accesses them right away. Its a very interesting area :)

 

As for XP being based on VMS ... only partially true, it was architected by the same guy ... I don't think DEC would have allowed VMS code to be used.

 

James

[Starlight]

You're likely to need a page file anyway. In Linux systems for example you should always have a swap partition, that's a small partition which is only used for the page file.

not quite correct. It's depends on memory amount you have in your box. I run my linux development plaform on 256mb without swapfile, based on Slackware setup. Also my linux project platform (quite resource-intensive, BTW) run on 512mb with no swap partition.

 

I wrote "you should" because you'll better have one, but it's not the only way to go ;)

[Dmut]

you right, I have overlooked that.

[Starlight]

They didn't borrow a thing. LInux is based on unix, windows XP/NT is based on VMS.

 

As for the pagefile, it's used in the manner that the OS determines is most optimal, whatever that may be.

 

Linux is based on Unix but it's NOT a Unix clone, the kernel and the modules are waaaay different. Linux was an evolution of Minix (a microkernel version of unix written from scratch by Tanenbaum for his students), but with a monolithic kernel. Linux shares the same Unix-like interface both to the developer (syscall) and to the user (shell and gui) but its core is completely different from Unix. Today it may be true that some Unix systems include some parts of linux code (that's the problem with SCO).

 

Then for NT, sure it has its origins into the VMS project. But there are rumors that in XP some things were "borrowed" from systems of the "other side". And if you look at stability, XP doesn't seem to belong to the NT family ;)

[Starlight]

I think this thread is going very far away from its intended target.

 

I thank the beta testers who anwsered some questions.

 

But I still would like to hear something from the dev group, even if I think it's not much likely. The end of November is really near and there isn't yet an official release date. I think they're quite busy to fix the (hopefully last) bugs,

[Whisper]

From what I read in your first post, you're asking if a list of bug/missing features are present in the patch.

IMHO the listing of available changes in 1.1 has already been published, and should answer your question.

Unfortunately, it doesn't cover the points you raised.

Perhaps in future patches, but I don't see it (apart from better AI behavior) come into FC directly.

If devs did something, they would have put it in the feature list.

[VAAF Higgins]

Hi,

I agree that AI is pretty poor, no actually extremely poor in LOMAC.

 

1) AI formations are almost non-existant.

 

2)AI pilots use afterburners just about ALL the time! :twisted:

I mean their range is massively reduced because they use AB all the bloody time, in a dive holding 900k's, with airbrakes out --they use AB!

So, i turn around and shoot them down for being such mullets! :x

Many missions with moderate to light ranges involved are rendred an impossibility.

 

3)Concerning AI crashes while taking off etc, this is serious, i mean in a campaign once there is a crash on your runway ,, thats IT!! End of Campaign!!!!!! Cant use that runway anymore, because that little crater is gloriously maintained! :roll:

 

The last two points basically stop me from using the campaigns i worked so hard on, no more SP.

 

4)I found that Su33's trying to land on the AC cannot do it in any windy conditions. They just cant.

 

Can someone address these issues??

 

Later 8)

[MonkeyIsland]

Starlight, doesn't look like you're going to get new AI any time soon. On the other hand, maybe the AI is real.....I mean maybe this is just the way they operate in Russia? The DEV's probably haven't responded because they don't understand what you're on about. You mean planes aren't supposed to crash into each other on take off?

 

Personally I think the DEV's are interested in making this came appeal to the Russian market. They could have made a lot more money by including an F-18 as there new plane, instead of a SU-25. That way they would have a bigger budget, and more resources to improve the game, and build there company. I wish I could read Russian so that I could look at the Russian forum and see if they are happy with the came and the AI the way it is. Maybe they view it as being accurate.

 

As for the AI being designed into the game from the very start, I think you are right, and as for the FPS problems, with your PC, and the level of graphics in LoMac, you would not have any problems if the code was optimized and efficient.

 

It's kind of like driving a car around with the hand-brake on all the time. Sure, you can put a bigger engine in your car (new CPU, RAM etc) but if you really want to go faster, and have the car operate as intended, let go the hand-brake (optimize the code, or make a new graphics/AI engine altogether).

 

I'd like to hear what the DEV's say about your concerns. I think your concerns are valid, and will determine if LoMac will be around for years to come, or if it's days are already numbered. All the eye candy in the world won't help is the game doesn't start to make some sense. We need playability, and a story, in the form of a dynamic campaign. When you play the game, you must feel like you have a part to play in a greater cause. The DEV's will have to be more creative aand come up with a story about why you're fighting in the first place. Falcon 4 had this, it was a simulation of a campaign against North Korea, and the movies, news reports etc at the beginning of the game made you understand your role in the campaign. An F-16 pilot involved in a major real time battlefield simulation.

 

In LoMac it's more of a case of fly and blow stuff up, and watch other planes crash themselves and into each other. That's fun for a while, but where's the challenge in that? A modern game/simulation must hold your attention for weeks at a time, you must have an end goal in mind that you are trying to achieve. I was talking to an executive at Electronic Arts, and he confirmed this for me, the story is everything, even more important than graphics.

[GGTharos]

1. The AI has been going significant bugfixing. It isn't perfect, but a lot of annoying stuff it used to do doesn't ahppen any more according to the Beta testers.

 

2. What you personally think is irrelevant since you're forgetting that they're actually not selling to the western market! They're nice enough to let us /buy/ their stuff via download, but they have no rights to distribution in the west, so what are you talking about? The F/A-18 wouldn't have made'em more money. Period, end of story.

 

3. It's funny how people talk about code being optimized without understanding what this means.

 

4. You have paid zero attention to the other threads in this forum, haven't you? LOMAC's days are far from numbered. As for what Falcon 4 'had', you should say '8 extra years of development', not 'dynamic campaign'. You ever tried the original F4? Da BOMB!

 

5. Electronics Arts is also on the verge of being sued for practically forcing slave labor on their programmers. What's your point? There are a lot of people so far who like LOMAC, and 1.1 does bring a story, too.

[GGTharos]

Starlight, a lot of issues with AI have been addressed...maybe not the ones you specifically ask about, however they no longer do some of the silly things they used to (like going off to strafe a long-range SAM with their gun) and apparently wingman control is somewhat better now.

 

We're not getting any reasonable ATC AFAIK, nor procedures.

 

On your config you should be having no FPS issues, so long as you keep water at low or medium ... maybe if you turn heat blur off. AA and AF, too ... see if that helps.

[MonkeyIsland]

Thank you for your truly insightful response, and your opinion. In the free world, we are all entitled to an opinion. In the free market economy, the survival of a corporation depends on it's abilities to deliver what it's customers want, not what the corporation wants.

 

LoMac has a lot of potential, that's why some people have the courage to bring the issues to the fore, to help improve the sim. Saying it's perfect, isn't going to make an improvement. I would like to see ED become successful, so that they can have the money and resources to improve the sim. Expanding sales to West will increase their profit. But in order to do that, they must design a game that caters to a Western mindset. I am trying to help them understand what westerners want, and though I don't speak for everyone, I think a flyable F/A-18 would have have increased the games appeal in the West, where people have more expendable income than in Russia.

 

2. What you personally think is irrelevant since you're forgetting that they're actually not selling to the western market! They're nice enough to let us /buy/ their stuff via download, but they have no rights to distribution in the west, so what are you talking about? The F/A-18 wouldn't have made'em more money. Period, end of story.

 

This is hardly a recipe for success in building a successful corporation. I'm sure that ED wants to sell as many copies throughout the world as possible. It is not a matter of them "allowing" us to buy there game, it's a matter of them providing a product in a niche market that consumers want to have, and are ready to pay hard earned cash for. How successful would MicroSoft or Electronic Arts be today if they had an attitude of "allowing" us the great priviledge of buying their games? The world doesn't work that way. Competition will weed out the inferior from the superior. LoMac has no competition right now, and that's what keeps it going. If there were other companies developing similar products, LoMac would be a better probuct than it is right now, or it would have dissappeared altogether. Such is free market competition. I didn't make the rules, I just know what they are. LoMac's a great game, but it can be better, there is always room for improvement, and the more improvement there is, the more sales they'll have, and then they can build the infrastructure to continuously make the game better, hire the best programmers and artists, and of course, the best AI experts.

 

The attitude of them "allowing" us the priviledge of buying the game, will result in very little for LockOn, because this is not a successful business strategy. If there are going to be distribution issues in the West, maybe they can just be put those on a FAQ page. If this is truly a big issue, and if ED is not selling to a Western market, as you stated, then there shouldn't be an English website for this game.

 

It would be nice to hear from the DEV's regarding Starlight's comments on AI.

[Starlight]

Starlight, a lot of issues with AI have been addressed...maybe not the ones you specifically ask about, however they no longer do some of the silly things they used to (like going off to strafe a long-range SAM with their gun) and apparently wingman control is somewhat better now.

 

I hope so, there were really lots of ugly AI bugs. BTW, I agree that the devs haev done a great work with this game, I think Lomac it's one of the best sims out there in the market. It's the most beautiful, I hope to see it being the "smartest" too.

 

We're not getting any reasonable ATC AFAIK, nor procedures.

 

That's not the most important thing, of course, it would just be a "nice to have" gadget ;)

 

On your config you should be having no FPS issues, so long as you keep water at low or medium ... maybe if you turn heat blur off. AA and AF, too ... see if that helps.

 

About FPS issues, I've wrote those things because there are some reasons that made me think they were caused by bugs.

This is because at a random point in some missions, Lomac starts to get really low FPS (I mean 4-5 FPS). I'll make a few examples. If someone who knows about the stuff (the devs) reads this post, maybe he will notice something to correct in this game:

 

- In the default A-10 mission where you have to attack two convoys near an enemy airfield, when I switch to the external view to watch the Tornado on SEAD escort, the FPS drop to 4-5 FPS. If I watch the A-10s or any other thing there, no trouble.

 

- When I have missions with overcast, if I fly over the clouds at the beginning of the mission, it's quite ok (around 20 FPS). After some time if I pop back over the clouds I will get only 5-10 FPS, not more (see the AWACS screenshot with 7 FPS).

 

- I built one mission with 6 Flankers taking off to intercept a flight of 4 Hornets and 2 F-15. The Flankers take off from a quite crowded airfield (parked aircraft). When the first two pair of Flankers take off everything's ok, but with the last pair I get again low FPS (always talking of external views). When I switch back to other aircraft again, higher FPS. Whenever I came across the last pair of Flankers my FPS dropped to 4-5, both on external views and from F-15 cockpit. But the most strange thing is this (see screens): watching one of the last Flankers from some distance I had good FPS, zooming in the view I had low FPS. Same angle, same aircraft, simulation stopped, just changed the zoom level. In the first screenshot you can notice 36 FPS, which is normal, in the second one 4 FPS, which is NOT normal.

 

What can you tell me about this?

 

 

 

 

[GGTharos]

Ok, first off, low FPS above overcast is normal, I hear ...

 

But your other issues have been mentioned as well, and no one really seems to know wher ehtey're coming from. I've encountered them as well but very sporadically, so I never had a problem in that area ... I honestly don't know what to tell you - you could try turning down some details like textures and/or shadows and see what happens.

[britgliderpilot]

LoMac's a great game, but it can be better, there is always room for improvement, and the more improvement there is, the more sales they'll have, and then they can build the infrastructure to continuously make the game better, hire the best programmers and artists, and of course, the best AI experts.

 

The attitude of them "allowing" us the priviledge of buying the game, will result in very little for LockOn, because this is not a successful business strategy. If there are going to be distribution issues in the West, maybe they can just be put those on a FAQ page. If this is truly a big issue, and if ED is not selling to a Western market, as you stated, then there shouldn't be an English website for this game.

 

IMHO, ED has good enough programmers, artists, and AI people.

 

What they DON'T have is time and money :wink:

 

 

The critical thing here is money . . . . a Hornet would make sales, sure . . . but who will pay for it to be developed?

 

ED is selling to as many markets as it can - it is prohibited from selling in big numbers to Western markets by legal issues and the lack of a publisher that wants to distribute flightsims.

 

Right now, the sole funding for ED is coming from 1C . . . . and as long as the Russians are paying for development, expect to see new Russian developments as a priority.

[MonkeyIsland]

Looking at your screenshots, there is nothing there, graphics wise, that warrants a 7 FPS display rate. 7 FPS with that amount of detail and your PC with a clean ugraded ver of LoMac from 1.00 to 1.02 should deliver all the FPS you need. 7 FPS is not normal, despite what many LoMac users have come to accept as "normal". There is something wrong with the software.

 

These problems need to be brought to the fore so that ED can get to the bottom of these issues, and improve the game, sell more copies, and make more money, provide us with improved sims and LoMac add on's well into the future.

 

I thank Starlight for helping ED to improve the game by submitting the results of his testing. I hope that by some chance ED will read what has been submitted here. FPS issues are the top priority in the list of fixes, add on's and modifications that need to be made to this game.

[Caretaker]

Personally I think the DEV's are interested in making this came appeal to the Russian market. They could have made a lot more money by including an F-18 as there new plane, instead of a SU-25. That way they would have a bigger budget, and more resources to improve the game, and build there company.

 

You got that the wrong way. They'd need the budget first to develop a Hornet or another "western" plane. Since Ubi threw the towel, they don't have a publisher in that markt anymore, so yes of course they're concentrating on the Russian market for now as this is where their money is currently coming from. They may have made more money with an F/A-18, but if they don't have anyone to pay for the development, nor the infrastructure to sell it in the target markets, that wouldn't be a very sensible choice.

 

The DEV's will have to be more creative aand come up with a story about why you're fighting in the first place. Falcon 4 had this, it was a simulation of a campaign against North Korea, and the movies, news reports etc at the beginning of the game made you understand your role in the campaign. An F-16 pilot involved in a major real time battlefield simulation.

 

Again not so much a question of creativity than of manpower. Also remember how Falcon4 has bunkrupted Microprose, so I'm not sure such an over-ambitious project is the way to go for a developer - even if the resulting game was certainly great some years after the release.

 

I was talking to an executive at Electronic Arts, and he confirmed this for me, the story is everything, even more important than graphics.

 

You may have noted that EA has quit the whole simulation market for years now, so I'm not sure they are the experts to consult for that ;)

[Caretaker]

But the most strange thing is this (see screens): watching one of the last Flankers from some distance I had good FPS, zooming in the view I had low FPS. Same angle, same aircraft, simulation stopped, just changed the zoom level. In the first screenshot you can notice 36 FPS, which is normal, in the second one 4 FPS, which is NOT normal.

 

What can you tell me about this?

 

Sounds like the heat blur problem. If you have heat blur enabled and this happens, pause the game and ALT-TAB to desktop and back into the game and see if this helps. I'm not sure what exactly causes this, but it seems to be related to available video RAM running low, resulting in frame buffer operations being performed off the card, which is considerably slower.

[SimFan]

LockOn not a great sim ?

 

In my country this (incredible) sim is sold for (the equivalent of) 10 USD.

For that amount of cash you get one of the, if not the, best simulation ever developed.

Many negative attitudes like these may cause this only 'serious' fast jet sim to cease to exist.

We should all be gratefull if and when ED DOES allow us western customers to download either the ADDon and or Patches.

A Russian company should IMHO think of the Russian market first.

What can be wrong with that ?

I wellcome ANY LockOn improvement I can get my hands on.

Whatever I have to pay for it.

Most 'issues' written here have reported so many times before in several forums.

Some of these (not AI related) can easily be solved by downloading some (FPS improvement) mod or other.

Also, as we very well know, LockOn is "future oriented/proof".

That is why it may be tough to run on your hardware.

Surely not because is was poorly written.

I'm sure, in time, some FPS related bugs will be ironed out.

Simply turn down some eye candy and enjoy !

If you don't want to do that (like me), buy a faster rig (like I did).

I am so pleased there still IS a company supporting LockOn !

Thanks ED.

(just my true personal feeling about this)

:)

[Drakkhen]

Low price is not really a problem if it doesn't come too soon: the flight sims addicts will get the full price one as soon as it gets on the market then the ones who are not usually interested but are curious enough can be tempted to have a try with it when it comes to a lower price.

Here in France, it seems the price fell too soon for I've heard a guy say to the merchant "Oh? comes at 15€ in two weeks? cool... see ya soon then..."

Beside, in some shops, the full price game didn't last long on counters since it was also distributed in restricted numbers.

[Starlight]

I agree with some things said here.

 

LockOn is one of the best sims in the market, and for little money you can but a sim which, at least graphically, is much better than many military sims worth billion dollars.

 

I don't know why its price has fallen so low. I bought it original for less than $ 20.00 USD this Summer, in boxed US version (just because I liked more the US cover than the "rest of the world" cover). Now here in Italy it can be found at less than 13 euros, the same price of Rogue Spear Platinum Edition (rogue spear is five years older than Lomac)!!!!!

 

Even though LockOn (1.02) still has some bugs, today I would still buy it even if it could only be found at full price (30-40 euros), like I did for Falcon 4.

 

Having said this, I must admit that after a bit of "serious" playing I got a bit frustrated by the low quality of the game dynamics. I found AI pilots really dumb and useless, and many missions simply fail to be realistic. Today LockOn is good for taking screenshots and videos, is good for "blast'em all" missions, but it falls a bit short when you want a pure simulation. The lack of a dynamic campaign is already a huge gap, and the lack of smart AI is another blow to the "single" player.

 

I don't know anything about marketing a product, and even if I'm a programmer I've never been involved in a complex project like a flight sim, so I don't know how hard it could be to modify some parts of LockOn code.

But IMHO if the LockOn team could find time and money to give us a more realistic sim (even without getting to the ultra high technical fidelity of Falcon 4), I think that this game could draw to itself many flight enthusiast that today don't care much about it.

 

I remember another good game, "Gunship!" by Microprose, which had excellent graphics but poor AI and it didn't sell very much either.

 

I hope LockOn will soon get a good refresh on its AI part.

[SimFan]

Too few may notice (?)...

 

Starlight,

I do not think anyone disagrees with you on those issues.

Your observations are dead accurate.

Problem is..., as you are probably also aware off, too few people may care and/or be able to notice.

Making the "weels turn", having winter landscapes... is most probably going to sell more copies then things 'under the hood'.

It would probably be suicide for ED to not cater to the vast majority of potential buyers.

Making a shoot-em-up in the sky (like Comanche 4) will always outsell any sim.

I still believe we should be gratefull there still are dedicated people like the ED devs out there.

If ED survives (and I and many others hope they will), LockOn and/or any successor can only be better, also in the AI department.

(BTW. I know just how hard it is to write complex software, I do it for a living, and play LockOn for fun!)

[Drakkhen]

Re: Too few may notice (?)...

 

Making a shoot-em-up in the sky (like Comanche 4) will always outsell any sim.

This kind of logic makes every year's available games less interesting and with fewer variety... soon, we'll just have an RTS, an FPS with very good graphics, yes, but just air behind... or is it void? :evil:

Why does CSP exists if not because of this?

 

Game creation is NOT lucrative, just like real Cinema is NOT lucrative...

Game production has its blockbusters makers and its innovators, just like Cinema has. Just don't think what is best is what sells best, it's just the opposite.