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ECM From Day 1?


TacoGrease
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Looking at the F-16 feature phases, I didn’t see the ECM pods listed under phases 1 or 2, but obviously they are listed as core systems. Does this mean they are coming at launch? Or what did I miss?

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Not as a placeholder, they are literally the same pods the A-10C uses.

 

Yeah but DCS ECM and reality are rather different... I hope DCS actually works to fix it someday.

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It will never work like in real life since how ECM works is top secret and you will cerrainly not find any open source information on that.

 

Nope. You can buy detailed textbooks of how most modern ECM and ECCM techniques work. It may not have every little thing in it, but id be happy with a 90% solution.

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Nope. You can buy detailed textbooks of how most modern ECM and ECCM techniques work. It may not have every little thing in it, but id be happy with a 90% solution.

 

Yeah... not going to happen.

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Nope. You can buy detailed textbooks of how most modern ECM and ECCM techniques work. It may not have every little thing in it, but id be happy with a 90% solution.

 

It's not the techniques of how ECM works that will matter here, it's more of how does the radar respond to and display ECM, which is in the Secret and above realm.

 

It will never be accurately produced but generalities can exist for generic ECM against a baseline radar. At that point you're completely guessing, and it may or may not be how ED want's to go after being so detailed in most other areas.

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As much as I dislike guesswork in the sim, I'm afraid that in this case, we have no choice. ECM is a huge part of modern warfare and having it implemented even in a basic way would add a layer of realism that is currently lacking. It is my opinion that ED approaching the matter with an "best estimate" implementation, based on publicly available information is far better than omitting ECM altogether.

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It's not the techniques of how ECM works that will matter here, it's more of how does the radar respond to and display ECM, which is in the Secret and above realm.

 

It will never be accurately produced but generalities can exist for generic ECM against a baseline radar. At that point you're completely guessing, and it may or may not be how ED want's to go after being so detailed in most other areas.

 

I think the display info is to various degrees known for many of those systems. Especially older ones. For example the F15 ECM display is straight out of the book, at least for the older radars. For deception jamming you are mainly generating false contacts or confusing the radar into generating a false return, or multiple returns to obscure the actual contact. Of course ECCM techniques and signal processing play a role there as well and are largely "automagic" in terms of signal processing on modern aircraft anyway, basically the rardar computer realizes its getting hosed and then automatically selects the appropriate countermeasures, while giving you a heads up that you are getting jammed by jammer ABC. I mean both the APG-63/70 families and the APG73 were all built by Huges/Rayethon, so its not much of stretch to think the display symbology would be the same or "very similar", same thing from training commonality standpoint.

 

But the reality is EW warfare is a huge factor in what modern combat is. And saying, nah we won't model that, or can't doesn't really work for alot of people. So I think they will need to implement something that at least approximates it.

 

I think one solution that makes some senese is to build something like the two different grades of FM's and systems modeling. You have "basic ECM" and more advanced version when you have better data.


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I think the display info is to various degrees known for many of those systems. Especially older ones. For example the F15 ECM display is straight out of the book, at least for the older radars. For deception jamming you are mainly generating false contacts or confusing the radar into generating a false return, or multiple returns to obscure the actual contact. Of course ECCM techniques and signal processing play a role there as well and are largely "automagic" in terms of signal processing on modern aircraft anyway, basically the rardar computer realizes its getting hosed and then automatically selects the appropriate countermeasures, while giving you a heads up that you are getting jammed by jammer ABC. I mean both the APG-63/70 families and the APG73 were all built by Huges/Rayethon, so its not much of stretch to think the display symbology would be the same or "very similar", same thing from training commonality standpoint.

 

But the reality is EW warfare is a huge factor in what modern combat is. And saying, nah we won't model that, or can't doesn't really work for alot of people. So I think they will need to implement something that at least approximates it.

 

I think one solution that makes some senese is to build something like the two different grades of FM's and systems modeling. You have "basic ECM" and more advanced version when you have better data.

 

If they can do rudimentary IFF I would think semi-comprehensive ECM shouldn’t be that big of a deal other “games” have decent approximations of it.

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If they can do rudimentary IFF I would think semi-comprehensive ECM shouldn’t be that big of a deal other “games” have decent approximations of it.

 

Agreed. Various people have proposed some reasonable schemes for "easy" implementation of it. With a kind of list of what sorts of ECM each radar would be succeptible to, and what sorts of ECM various planes/pods were capable of putting out. And of course ECCM on top of that.

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Biggest problem with any ''realistic'' approximation of ECM is it will have to be integrated into each module individually, as well as how THAT module is affected by the various types of ECM.

 

Note that even now, with one crude system, some aircraft are affected/implemented differently based on the 3rd party. It's not going to be something that can be copy pasted into modules. It would directly involve both how DCS handles radar data and by extention RCS data ALL of which are currently extremely crude.

 

Reworking ECM means reworking the entire sensor ecosystem... which itself is ALSO variable by 3rd party (Heatblur is more complex than others, for example).

 

It isn't that I don't support it, but I think you guys aren't really grasping the magnitude, maybe even impossibility, of overhauling this huge aspect. It's more akin to graphic engine overhaul or Vulkan implementation, it's not going to be ''coding a single system that works automatically with all modules''. The game wasn't designed for any of this complex sensor stuff, there is no real framework there to build on, just everybody doing their own half baked ''simplifications''.

 

I.e. it's more like a feature that would be presented as DCS 3.0 or 4.0 (assuming Vulkan warrants 3.0 when it launches)

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I don't disagree. I just think it should be a major core engine priority moving forward.

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... I.e. it's more like a feature that would be presented as DCS 3.0 or 4.0 (assuming Vulkan warrants 3.0 when it launches)

Your post makes a lot of sense, though for me one of the biggest and hopefully simple things that could be done is to not model SPJ's as noise jammers. The fixed it for the AI by adding the "ECM only when locked" option, but players still give themselves away when turning on ECM and have to wait 15 seconds to do it.

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This. As others have said, even an approximation is key given the importance of ECM in modern day.

 

I don't disagree. I just think it should be a major core engine priority moving forward.

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