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MiG-21bis unrealistic RSBN Systems !!


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Your MiG-21bis use unrealistic RSBN Systems, Why?

 

 

 

This is a RSBN station (RSBN-4N Radio Navigation Ground Beacon) :

vneshnii_vid_RSBN.jpg

The RSBN-4N round-the-clock, all-weather short-range radio navigation beacon is designed to provide continuous navigation support for military and civil aircraft, and guide them to any point within the beacon's range. The RSBN-4N also supports air traffic control.

RSBN symbologies on MAP (DCS "F-10" MAP):

we2c.jpg

 

 

And this is the real positions of RSBN station in DCS Caucasus:

5ihv.jpg

 

 

> The L-39 use the realistic and logical RSBN station position on the map and correct channels.

 

So why the MiG-21Bis use a fictional and illogical list of RSBN and wrong channels in all DCS MAPS ??

 

 

 

 

 

 

SksN7Ge.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

:doh:


Edited by Satarosa

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So why the MiG-21Bis use a fictional and illogical list of RSBN and wrong channels in all DCS MAPS ??

Because the real ones didn't exist in DCS 5+ years ago, when the MiG-21bis was released.


Edited by QuiGon

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Bad argumentation..

 

Because the real ones didn't exist in DCS 5+ years ago, when the MiG-21bis was released.

 

 

 

If the MiG-21Bis uses the "real" RSBN station of the DCS map, this will simplify the life of everyone, will be harmonized with the rest and simpler to understand and especially logical !

 

Redoing the RSBN navigation .LUA file will takes 5 min to dev, it will be much better to have the same station as the "F10" MAP and L-39 as well, and future modules!

 

 

AND no more need to have one of the kneeboard pages dedicated to fictional RSBN..

 

 

 

 

 

 

>>> True


Edited by Satarosa

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Bad argumentation?! Dude, calm down. I just answered your question why the MiG-21 is using a different implementation. No argumentation in that, neither bad nor good. I never said that it is good as it is. It would of course be better if it would be changed to the DCS RSBN system. I never denied that...


Edited by QuiGon

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Good, we totally agree

 

Bad argumentation?! Dude, calm down. I just answered your question why the MiG-21 is using a different implementation. No argumentation in that, neither bad nor good. I never said that it is good as it is. It would of course be better if it would be changed to the DCS RSBN system. I never denied that...

 

 

 

+1

 

 

We totally agree for that.

 

 

 

 

I hope for this also:

 

 

For a Radial NAV with RSBN, (TACAN, VOR) we have normally to input the MAG VAR (ex: Caucasus +6°, Nevada +12°) to the course of (НПП-МК) to correct the Compas Cap and doing a right NAV to the destination !

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I can forward your suggestion mate, but I personally would recommend you to put it also into our Mantis: https://leatherneck-sim.mantishub.io/my_view_page.php

That way Dolphin will notice it faster.

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I can forward your suggestion mate, but I personally would recommend you to put it also into our Mantis: https://leatherneck-sim.mantishub.io/my_view_page.php

That way Dolphin will notice it faster.

 

Don’t take me wrong with this quasi OT. I understand you need keep going forward for next module. We already know Mig-21 module need some attention. Question... why you don’t make a similar version of this aircraft e.g. Mig-21UM or Mig-21MF then you use this projects to clean up the current module bugs and also you get your bucks and we get another version and better Bis module.

 

I will go for MF first and launch it as Alpha, then you avoid the pissy users asking for all perfect but at least you will have incoming $ and time, also the community will help for research in case something missed.

 

Edit: Look what ED did with FW-190. Not the same case but it is a smart move and we get a second 21 and a better module.


Edited by pepin1234

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Would buy MF or SM instantly if it will have flight model performance charts comparisons to the real charts. As for beacons, same goes for the ARK, especially I'd like to use it for DPRM/BPRM with far/close switching for airfield pattern flying. Sarmatt(who is credible to the max) did a mod about all that a while ago, you can contact him for assistance and just place his work into the build.

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I hope for this also:

 

For a Radial NAV with RSBN, (TACAN, VOR) we have normally to input the MAG VAR (ex: Caucasus +6°, Nevada +12°) to the course of (НПП-МК) to correct the Compas Cap and doing a right NAV to the destination !

AFAIK RSBN radials are aligned with True north, unlike TACAN/VOR radials which are aligned with Magnetic North.

 

In the the L-39 there is a MagVar compensator (in the rear seat) so the RMI (HSI) reads True, I'm not sure how the MiG-21 should handle RSBN radials.

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?

 

AFAIK RSBN radials are aligned with True north, unlike TACAN/VOR radials which are aligned with Magnetic North.

 

In the the L-39 there is a MagVar compensator (in the rear seat) so the RMI (HSI) reads True, I'm not sure how the MiG-21 should handle RSBN radials.

 

I'm not sure it's possible, to my knowledge only a ultra-modern aircraft has the ability to align with true North with satellite-correcting instrumentation..

 

On the other hand it might be possible for ground crews dealing with Radio loading and MiG-21bis avionics to be able to encode a magnetic variation in the MiG-21bis navigation system but this is only theory..?

 

It is a complicated subject but extremely interesting because it has very little information on this system. If anyone has any information, I would be happy to learn more!

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Yes, Ramsay have right, RSBN-5S works with true geographic radials not with magnetic radials. Course system KSI feeding RSBN-5S with magnetic radials and then those are changed to geographical in magnetic correction device. Of course this system is not super precise, but precise enough in late 60's. Many Soviets aircrafts of that era had the same, identical RSBN-5S system, so shouldn't be any differences in work between them ( L-39, MiG-21Bis, Su-15T/TM, Su-17/M/Su-20). So far only L-39 have proper implementation, still few things can be improved, but generally L-39 is a point of reference for (I hope) future Bis improvements in navigation area.

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Super

 

Yes, Ramsay have right, RSBN-5S works with true geographic radials not with magnetic radials. Course system KSI feeding RSBN-5S with magnetic radials and then those are changed to geographical in magnetic correction device. Of course this system is not super precise, but precise enough in late 60's. Many Soviets aircrafts of that era had the same, identical RSBN-5S system, so shouldn't be any differences in work between them ( L-39, MiG-21Bis, Su-15T/TM, Su-17/M/Su-20). So far only L-39 have proper implementation, still few things can be improved, but generally L-39 is a point of reference for (I hope) future Bis improvements in navigation area.

 

Ok thank you for this valuable information. We will still try to have the RSBN positions according to the positions of the map (F10) and other modules, for a better immersion and more realistic!

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AND no more need to have one of the kneeboard pages dedicated to fictional RSBN..

 

 

Good luck with F10 maps disabled online...

 

 

It's good as is. The only thing they might consider is changing the channels so they match up with the ones provided by DCS. Additional stations are anything else than unrealistic, as those are mobile units as you could see on the image you provided. Maybe they should go the step and let the mission builder place those and decide the frequencies instead and have a script build the kneeboard page accordingly when loading up.

dcsdashie-hb-ed.jpg

 

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This must be written:

Many people comparing Soviet RSBN to western TACAN system but those are totally DIFFERENT stuff. TACAN is "only" radio beacon receiver with distance measuring channel, RSBN ( under this name we have several systems like RSBN-2S, RSBN-5S, RSBN-6S, A-321, A-324 etc) is a navigation calculating complex, which use "dead reckoning" concept. In every RSBN type main basic mode is automonous mode when system is calculating aircraft position with data taken from aircraft's systems ( like speed, drifts, course, etc), but because this kind of navigation have growing error during flight time ( because all of on-board instrument have some own error, and those errors are cumulating in RSBN) navigation complex need some kind of correction and this correction in RSBN system is provided by ground radio-stations in "correction" mode. RSBN-5S in "correction" mode have accuracy 200 m in distance measurement and 2 deg in angular measurement. So generally RSBN is calculating aircraft's position all the time and when radio signal is achievable then RSBN correcting own calculations.

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Bad argument, not knowing the use of a navigation map in real ?

 

Good luck with F10 maps disabled online...

 

The map should never be disabled as in reality, however arcades options of the map F10 (positioning units on the map) should not exist in DCS WORLD!

 

Having a general map of navigation is essential in reality as in the game because most of the radio navigation beacons are not necessarily on an aerodrome !

 

 

 

good as is. The only thing they might consider is changing the channels so they match up with the ones provided by DCS. Additional stations are anything else than unrealistic, as those are mobile units as you could see on the image you provided. Maybe they should go the step and let the mission builder place those and decide the frequencies instead and have a script build the kneeboard page accordingly when loading up.

 

RSBN stations are fixed or re-deployable units but in no case mobile units..

 

RSBN-6 radar in Russia

675px-RSBN-6_radar_in_Russia.jpg

 

As our friend explained foxbat155 an RSBN station can never be placed on a TACAN as they do for example in Nevada Map! It is completely illogical and unrealistic and does not comply with the navigation system..

 

:doh:

 

 

Personally me it bothers me to use fictional RSBN that do not correspond to the map while with the other modules you can use "everything" on the map F10

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RSBN stations are fixed or re-deployable units but in no case mobile units..

 

As our friend explained foxbat155 an RSBN station can never be placed on a TACAN as they do for example in Nevada Map! It is completely illogical and unrealistic and does not comply with the navigation system..:doh:

Personally me it bothers me to use fictional RSBN that do not correspond to the map while with the other modules you can use "everything" on the map F10

RSBN/PRMG could be quickly set up in wartime though, so that's what's simulated.

I don't want to be restricted to 4 airports like the L-39, when the weather is shitty & I want do RSBN/PRMG app.

 

As for F10, Mig-21's fictional stations aren't shown coz they're Mig-21 specific, you'll just have to deal with it. Or persuade M3LLC to include them in the knee-board. AFIAK it's never been a problem for anyone.

 

The "extra" RSBN/PRMG stations on Caucasus were a huge community request before the Mig-21 came out, the dev's went extra way to implement them, so be glad we have them!!! :doh:

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Sorry but no

 

RSBN/PRMG could be quickly set up in wartime though, so that's what's simulated.

 

RSBN stations are not just mobile trucks, these are also fixed stations still use at the moment by civil aircraft flights. I think you have not a concrete picture of the thing..

RSBN stations must be indicated on navigation map like all other radio stations !

Because it's like that in reality !!

image040.jpg

 

There are even still currently many countries that use RSBN stations with some civilian planes for navigation ! It was not only used by the army but it is also used by civilian flights

 

RSBN in Sim: (

)

 

 

 

I don't want to be restricted to 4 airports like the L-39, when the weather is shitty & I want do RSBN/PRMG app..

 

...

 

The "extra" RSBN/PRMG stations on Caucasus were a huge community request before the Mig-21 came out, the dev's went extra way to implement them, so be glad we have them!!!

 

DCS is a combat simulator, do not need to have fictitious and unreal simplifications for beginners to have easier :doh:

 

 

X

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DCS is a combat simulator, do not need to have fictitious and unreal simplifications for beginners to have easier :doh:

 

It's not about having fictitious RSBN stations for beginners, etc.

 

Rather it's making compromises for gameplay / realism on maps that have to cover a wide time span.

 

Batumi, Kutaisi, Tbilisi and others had RSBN stations prior to the breakup of the Soviet Union, it's a subjective decision whether to give the MiG-21 all the nav. aids it would have in it's hayday or to model a somewhat realistic modern day map.

 

Personally I'd have liked if ED had include at least one or two (civilian) RSBN stations in Georgia to support Russian aircraft from the 80's, etc.

 

I'm not sure how realistic Leatherneck/Magnitude's RSBN placement is but there were no realistic RSBN's in DCS at the time of the MiG-21's 2014 release.

 

The "extra" RSBN/PRMG stations on Caucasus were a huge community request before the Mig-21 came out, the dev's went extra way to implement them, so be glad we have them!!! :doh:

 

I don't recall a community request for extra RSBN's (perhaps it was on the Russian forums ?), as IIRC the only Russian aircraft at the time were FC3 aircraft that used DCS 1.2's simplified system model of RSBN/TACAN and ILS/PRMG.

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OK

 

Personally I'd have liked if ED had include at least one or two (civilian) RSBN stations in Georgia to support Russian aircraft from the 80's, etc.

 

+1 for that.

 

But with a radial RSBN nav you can go everywhere, don't need many RSBN Stations in a MAP..

 

:music_whistling:

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You can go everywhere in any case, I guess. But using the radial RSBN stations is pretty much restricted to areas where you actually receive the radio signal from said stations, which is slightly difficult if you happen to have Europe's highest mountains between yourself and the RSBN station, no matter how well set up or capable it is.

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+1

 

You can go everywhere in any case, I guess. But using the radial RSBN stations is pretty much restricted to areas where you actually receive the radio signal from said stations, which is slightly difficult if you happen to have Europe's highest mountains between yourself and the RSBN station, no matter how well set up or capable it is.

 

 

 

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Option B), meanwhile they fix this, you can use the GPS NS430.

 

MiG_21BISD_111209_13.jpg

 

ED fixed the bug with Mig-21 afterburner and this GPS module?? Was a bug very annoying turning off the GPS when afterburner. Guess what, only in Mig-21.


Edited by pepin1234

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