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On the heels of another discussion, that has now somewhat died off, I thought I would open a discussion on a couple of rules that still get people confused and/or upset and were brought up here, and still seem to be misunderstood.

 

I will start this discussion with rules 1.15 and 1.16.

 

1.15 Discussions of other game companies products are forbidden. We do not allow the discussion, reviewing of, or comparison of other software here. Posting news updates or advertising other products or games is also forbidden (unless approved by an admin). Abuse of other companies and/or anyone related to those companies will not be tolerated. ED also reserves the right to remove any thread or post about another game or company it deems doesn't comply with this rule.

 

Why do we have this rule?

 

This seems to be very confusing for people, and I get it, this looks like a discussion forum for flight simulators, but in fact, it is a discussion forum for DCS World.

 

Another point people think is fact and is not is that I or anyone else at ED think we have no competition. This is simply not true, I have stated in the past that we are not trying to compete vs other sims, but in the fact that we are not trying to model another game, but real life. This means if you want to show something wrong with DCS World, we look for real-world examples. We do compete in the fact that we want to have the best product, we want to offer the best options, etc. But in reality, are the biggest competition is ourselves, and pushing the envelope, and not getting complacent. You look at things other sims are doing, or how new sims coming out look, it does drive us, but the discussion here doesn't do anything to help that.

 

But what about features in other games that we want in DCS? Of course, you can do this, you don't need to go, I want a Dynamic Campaign like Falcon 4 in DCS, you can simply say, I want a Dynamic Campaign. Falcon 4 was very cool in its day and is still a lot of fun, but if you cut the DC from there and were able to paste it into DCS World somehow, you wouldn't be happy. ED identifies features that customers want, but they need to be designed with DCS in mind. From Singleplayer to Multiplayer and encompassing all modules ED has to offer. A DC for DCS World needs to be designed from the ground up for DCS World. Sure there may be features in there you want for DCS, but you can specify those without invoking the name of anyone else. Just tell us what you want.

 

But the missiles (Damage Model, campaigns, clouds, or whatever) are better over here? Ok, so there are 3 reasons they are "better", they guessed, they have data we don't, they have data they shouldn't. So where does that leave ED, and how does bringing up another sim help? It doesn't. We need the data, how it is implemented in another sim can differ by interpretation, so it's better to say, here is the data, here is the info, here is what we think is wrong. Even if we use the same data as another sim, it might not act or seem the same based on the complexity of FMs, guidance systems, etc. An older sim might not see air the same way, weather, any other factors. So again, referencing another sim just doesn't do us much good. Yeah, there are things coming out with better-looking clouds, but at the end of the day, we want DCS to have realistic clouds, not a copy of something else, you may not believe me, but deep down you do.

 

The big one, community toxicity. I have seen the simplest, silliest arguments over there years, about the craziest things. On the internet, its easier to argue, be mean, say bad things, etc. I can point to other game forums with DCS threads that are nothing but an argument or place to trash developers, or other users. I can't tell you how many times Wags and I comment to each other that "This is why we have 1.15" when we see some of the toxic stuff out there. This isn't just meant to shield us, but we don't want you trashing the guys at other studios, or people out there keeping older games alive. There are places better suited for these discussions, but this isn't the place.

 

1.16 Posting images, file links, file sharing links, copying and pasting information, or referencing of military aircraft and related equipment documents, in any way, newer than 1980 is strictly prohibited on our forums. Such posts will be removed, a 20% warning and 1-week suspension will be issued.

 

Still a lot of confusion on this one as well, and how fast and furious it came in, and how fluid it has changed.

 

This one is pretty simple though, and I think now has stabilized. Simply put some sketchy stuff happened, some people got in trouble, and these forums had some of the exchanges take place. The people who said this was bad, are still going to keep an eye on how we do things, so we are going to error on the side of safe and delete now and ask questions later.

 

So right above I was telling you that you need to provide real-world data to get things fixed. This is still true, but you have to do it without linking, uploading or copying text out of these documents. So what you can do, you can say you have seen data somewhere that shows something different. You can reference a website and knowledge that it is publicly available (but please don't direct link or upload unless given permission). You can contact the moderation team.

 

It's not an ideal place for anyone to be in, especially when we are trying to make the most realistic sims out there. But these days it's better to be safe than sorry.

 

Because of that, we tend to hit this rule harder than anyone out there, because I would rather someone was suspended for a couple of days, than the alternative.

 

Feel free to discuss below. 1.16 isn't going to change, I have yet to see anything good enough to change 1.15, but I will keep an open mind. Please keep it respectful and mature. And if you have concerns about other rules, feel free to bring them up. Thanks.

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Edited by NineLine

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One small thing about rule 1.15 that I think the team doesn’t get:

 

Comparing how systems are implemented in other games is indeed pointless, but here’s an example that isn’t and IMO should be allowed: X game has Y implementation, and I’ve seen Z performance increase, this would be interesting to see in DCS.

 

Naming X game gives a reference. Right now it’s incredibly difficult and frustrating to reference game mechanics and visuals/performance, because we can’t reference any game.

 

Eagle Dynamics is still making games (no professional flight sim, at least not DCS) and a such, I think it is fair to say that we should be able to talk about other games and reference them (specifically on video game-related things). This is so ED can have access to the best info its community can give.

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I understand what you are saying, but I still feel like you can be a little more vague about it and get your point across. Also maybe we can loosen the reigns a little.

 

I mean even if we say another game has implemented Vulcan, and we would like to see it here for example, because ED is using its own tech, and such, I am not sure the comparison to another sim, or another game is totally justified. Even taking into account the complexity of FMs, the size and details of maps, etc.

 

Also, we need to remember that the team, from the top bosses down, are all following the trends, they know the next big thing or the things that are around, I am not too sure too many things are going to take them by surprise.

 

But again, maybe in certain terms, we can loosen a little.

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This is taking a positive direction. First of all, 1.16 is a good rule and I understand where ED is coming from. It's just too risky to allow any and all documents to be uploaded, given the people who frequent these forums. At the end of the day, users are anonymous and if anything goes wrong, the people running the website will get in trouble, not the user.

I assume the main reasons for 1.15 is to mainly avoid comparisons that are out of place (Such as X game has really good infantry simulation, why can't we have that, ignoring the fact that such a change could never take place in the scale of DCS, with today's CPU limitations). Threads like this can turn into huge, pointless and negative messes.

On the other hand, relaxing a little bit on 1.15 is potentially a good thing that can offer the devs different outlooks or ideas, coming from a much larger pool of people. If we can avoid the above pitfalls and focus on ways to improve DCS rather than compare it to other products and point negatives all the time, it'll benefit everyone.

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Hi Nineline,

 

a problem with rule 1.15 is, that it appears like censorship for individual reason not common reason to the people and diminish their right of free speech, what is very apart from the intention of the rule itself.

 

In fact it is censorship and gives negatives impressions.

 

Me got no problem with the rule as I got no intention or reason to talk about comparable products - just want to share some thoughts on the discussion in this thread. I´ll too avoid mentioning other flight sims, if you want me to do so. :)

 

Some time ago, I´ve read about a guy, who was punished, because of this rule, as I understand, just because he mentioned in his posting another flight sim. And his punishment is to understand as an example on him for everybody to take this rule seriously - very bad behaviour!

 

Why not changing the rule into "No threads about other flight sims allowed", which could soften the rule a bit and make it more in accordance to the peoples right of being treated with positive intentions in their posting.

 

By far DCS World should be afraid to face any comparison - there are thousand reasons, where DCS wins over others, but in the discussion surely will only be mentioned the one reason, in which it looses a comparison - that´s kind of nature in the discussions here.

 

As moderator you always got the opportunity to intervene any discussion, which goes a bit over the top with its comparisons, but no one should be punished, because he named another flight sim in a discussion.

 

Finally I do understand, why this rule was invented and that some people exceeded respect for the work and intention of the ED teams, which may have really bothered, but for these, there should not be punished all.

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Is 1.15 enforced forum-wide in ALL languages?

 

Reason I ask is that I do see other games mentioned by title right in the title of the post and they often return to the New Posts feed (meaning they don’t get purged for a while) and they’re almost always in Russian.

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What I really don't understand about rule 1.15 is why it doesn't apply to the russian side of this forum? At least that's the way it seems like (e.g. here).

 

Edit: lol, sniped...

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Is 1.15 enforced forum-wide in ALL languages?

 

Reason I ask is that I do see other games mentioned by title right in the title of the post and they often return to the New Posts feed (meaning they don’t get purged for a while) and they’re almost always in Russian.

 

What I really don't understand about rule 1.15 is why it doesn't apply to the russian side of this forum? At least that's the way it seems like (e.g. here).

 

Edit: lol, sniped...

 

Other languages as well.

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All that I ask is the enforcing same rules through the forum, regardless the language....

So start cleaning the other language forums as well....

 

I do get the idea behind the rules, but I have as well witnessed way too one sided moderation and unfair to everyone.

 

The rules should be there as well to teach others, deleting posts etc doesn't help anyone really. Modifying them would. Like delete the attachment, snip the link, delete the "bad word" instead whole message.

 

It is far more effective when moderator steps in and issues a vocal warning to everyone in the thread, not just deleting one part or whole thread. That of course if the discussion had not yet inflamed.

 

I as well like to improve DCS, I would like to commit idea and wishes, many would be far more easier to present by using examples from already done in some manner somewhere else. It is "look, here is this kind idea used, it adds more immersion as you can see about in this screenshot/video" , but you can't, instead you should explain everything and more like provide a verbal explanation that takes pages while all it would otherwise take is 10 second of video.

 

The same thing is with example book sources, someone tells that it is magazine/book ISBN this and this, but doesn't take a screenshot of make direct quote so everyone could read it. That is as well bad for community of the data can't be validated by everyone. If the data is classified etc, then don't even bring it if you can't give quote. Such data should be sent directly to developers via private message etc.

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Is 1.15 enforced forum-wide in ALL languages?

 

Reason I ask is that I do see other games mentioned by title right in the title of the post and they often return to the New Posts feed (meaning they don’t get purged for a while) and they’re almost always in Russian.

 

The Russian side has decided to handle things slightly different, they tend to let it go even more, but also tend to have a higher suspension/ban rate than us. We are a lot busier on the English side, and tend to like to cut down on the drama where we can.

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So in other words: It is OK to post entire threads about other games on the russian side, while it is not OK to do the same on the english side of the forums? Not exactly my understanding of "fair enough"...

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Like the forum because of those rules. Very simple.

 

When I read other forums and read the garbage some write, mildly expressed, I ask myself, how do they behave in RL, I guess not too much different.

 

Keep it strict and clean, that way we all benefit the most in the long run.

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