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Refueling


joojoo
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Hey to all

 

I have try again ang again to do an air to air refueling but I cannot despite that I am very close to tanker. I do not use HOTAS warthog for simulation but a simple thrustmaster HOTAS. Is that a matter of thw stick? Is it with warthog more easy? I also like to ask if the curves of the Stick have a significant role to air refueling.

 

Thanx

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Axis curves have a HUGE impact on how difficult it is to AAR or to fly formation or even just fly in general.

Apart from that, if you feel good flying with your setup and you are confident you are in full control of the aircraft, just make sure you have:

 

1. set the proper tanker frequency (unless easy comms option is enabled)

2. make sure you are calling the tanker on the proper radio (different keys for COM1 and COM2)

3. make sure you get cleared to rejoin, then position yourself in pre-contact position (lots of videos on youtube showcasing this)

4. report "ready precontact" to the tanker and recieve a "cleared contact" (or nothing if you're not in the right position)

5. approach the basket slowly and steadily and it will connect just a moment before you actually "touch" it

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tip for people who find it difficult to refuel.

 

Fly up near the tanker and match the speed and height.

Turn on the autopilot Altitude hold.

When the autopilot is on it become much more easy since your stick become much less sensitive/responsive.

 

note..: if you push to hard on your joystick while autopilot is on it will turn off.

 

Regarding speed and tanking, then you maybe have to sit and make small adjustmen forward and back on your trottle if you trottle is not precise.

 

tip..: when you train refueling, then do it behind a large plane such as the c130 hercules or the kc135 ( there are two versions one with a boom and one with the connector the hornet uses ).

 

Els regarding learning to refuel, then practice 15 minutes every day, and after 1 week i think you can do it your self every time ;-)

And you can do it with any joystick, its a matter of practice... personaly my old joystick was unprecise and i air refuel better than people with super expensive ones.. a matter of practice.

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Also, what ever you do NEVER look at the basket except with your peripheral vision. If you do you will cause pilot induced oscillations.

 

 

 

Good youtube AAR tutorial:

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Also, what ever you do NEVER look at the basket except with your peripheral vision. If you do you will cause pilot induced oscillations.

 

 

 

Good youtube AAR tutorial:

 

I always look at the basket when refueling the f18 or mirage, due to the probe being so close to the canopy. The only time I recall missing the basket on the first attempt was 2 weeks ago when the left basket was already taken and I had to go for the other one while the tanker was turning left. I guess on that condition the basket and my plane were getting more turbulence...

After contact, I change my focus to the tanker, keep that green light on.

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I always look at the basket when refueling the f18 or mirage, due to the probe being so close to the canopy. The only time I recall missing the basket on the first attempt was 2 weeks ago when the left basket was already taken and I had to go for the other one while the tanker was turning left. I guess on that condition the basket and my plane were getting more turbulence...

After contact, I change my focus to the tanker, keep that green light on.

 

That’s probably different for everyone, if I look at the basket I always get oscillations when I get close to the basket.

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Don't look at the basket and don't use Autopilot.

 

Beamscanner hit the nail on the head, the cold hard truth is that AAR is supposed to be difficult, you are not meant to be good at it without putting lots of time and effort in to it.

So just keep practising sir, you will 100% start to see results if you put the time in and just maintain a little patience and the outlook that this is a difficult skill to master and will take some time to get on top of.

Some people use Autopilot, while this gives you the short term satisfaction of actually getting in the basket it develops bad habits and limits the envelope in which you can refuel.

 

Its much better to spend the time not using the autopilot and develop the skill set to do it manually like they do IRL.

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;4027720']Don't look at the basket and don't use Autopilot.

 

Beamscanner hit the nail on the head, the cold hard truth is that AAR is supposed to be difficult, you are not meant to be good at it without putting lots of time and effort in to it.

So just keep practising sir, you will 100% start to see results if you put the time in and just maintain a little patience and the outlook that this is a difficult skill to master and will take some time to get on top of.

Some people use Autopilot, while this gives you the short term satisfaction of actually getting in the basket it develops bad habits and limits the envelope in which you can refuel.

 

Its much better to spend the time not using the autopilot and develop the skill set to do it manually like they do IRL.

 

Very true. Practice, practice, practice. And regarding the „don‘t look at the basket“, I‘ll just tell you my experience but in the end you have to figure out what works for you:

 

I had quite some trouble to both a)getting in and also b)staying in. And, at least for me, these are really two completely different things. I was bad at both of them about 1 year ago:smilewink:.

 

I always tended to look at the basket to get in and I had a very hard time achieving it. I then took the advice to look at the pod instead and acquire the basket with only the peripheral vision. That helped me A LOT to become mich better at getting in. To stay in, I also did really look at the pod and the overall picture of the tanker to judge my deviations and counter them.

The latter part has not changed for me. But after I gained some proficiency in getting in, I sometimes catched myself to revert back to looking at the basket instead of the pod. And you know what? Now that I got the „feeling“ for how to get in and the confidence that I will get in, I basically always look at the basket and only the basket and just have the tanker in my peripheral vision. It works perfectly fine for me. So in the end it is about practicing and gaining the confidence that you can consistently do it - whatever way works for YOU.

 

And as a sidenote: I never even thought about using the autopilot for that. And I do have curves on my TMW but these really come down to personal preferences, just as others stated before me.

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Use very little roll input in close, since the probe is off center line, you are changing the probes path to the drogue with a roll input. If you need lateral adjustment, a slight boot of rudder is better than rolling. Also relax, by tensing up, you're transferring that tension to the stick and throttle and losing the small inputs you wanted. Wiggling your toes tends to help fight the tension. As everyone else has said, practice, practice, practice. However, don't over do it, set up a mission where you're in trail and try to connect a few times. If you fail, fly away and do something else. Repeat.

 

Also watch out for the wake turbulence, come in slightly low of the wings and stay there once connected.

 

I personally do not use autopilot, nor do I have any curves in the stick axis.

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After practising many times over the last months and maybe be able to connect once or twice, i decided to try it again last night and was finally able to stay on for about 15 seconds. I increased the friction of my throttle so I was less jerky and that seemed to help. I will practice again tonight. I was pretty stoked when I able to connect.

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Very true. Practice, practice, practice. And regarding the „don‘t look at the basket“, I‘ll just tell you my experience but in the end you have to figure out what works for you:

 

I had quite some trouble to both a)getting in and also b)staying in. And, at least for me, these are really two completely different things. I was bad at both of them about 1 year ago:smilewink:.

 

I always tended to look at the basket to get in and I had a very hard time achieving it. I then took the advice to look at the pod instead and acquire the basket with only the peripheral vision. That helped me A LOT to become mich better at getting in. To stay in, I also did really look at the pod and the overall picture of the tanker to judge my deviations and counter them.

The latter part has not changed for me. But after I gained some proficiency in getting in, I sometimes catched myself to revert back to looking at the basket instead of the pod. And you know what? Now that I got the „feeling“ for how to get in and the confidence that I will get in, I basically always look at the basket and only the basket and just have the tanker in my peripheral vision. It works perfectly fine for me. So in the end it is about practicing and gaining the confidence that you can consistently do it - whatever way works for YOU.

 

And as a sidenote: I never even thought about using the autopilot for that. And I do have curves on my TMW but these really come down to personal preferences, just as others stated before me.

 

Same here. I started using the cues Maverick describes on his video and then I changed focus to the basket after I got smoother enough. Once I was on pre-contact closing in for the basket and the tanker banked left, at the moment I didn't notice what was happening and kept chasing the basket as smooth as I could. Only after contact, when I changed focus to the pod that I noticed the tanker had turned and I was banked too.

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The only comment I'll add is in reference to curves. And this advice comes from the Helo side of DCS. The human brain really likes linear inputs, and predicts based on linear inputs. Curves by definition aren't really linear. That being said I do use them for fixed wing aircraft alot, and only use flattened linear curves for helos because I get much greater precision with them. You can also make a "custom" curve in DCS thats flat and linear in the center, and then curved at the ends for when you need "full deflection".

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To get better at air refueling, first get good at just flying formation with another airplane. Graduate up to AR after being comfortable flying off another airplane’s wing. AR is difficult...makes no difference if it is with the boom or drogue. I was stationed at the KC-135 & C-17 school house in Oklahoma. When a C-17 pilot needed remedial training, it was more often for air refueling.

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For my money, forget about the axis curves and get yourself a smooth stick. Apart from the fact that it can cause you other problems in other areas, and no real plane has this curve, if you will. I’ve got a Warthog with a 10cm extension. Before I got the extension the stiction from the neutral position was too much to make the tiny nuanced corrections you need when aerial refuelling.

 

The extra moment arm is what makes all the difference, return to neutral resistance is less than half and very small discrete movements can be made just like IRL.

 

The 10cm extension did the trick. I believe also that one of the cheaper Saitek sticks has a very smooth stick with only small return to centre force that is easily resisted while making small manoeuvres.

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You practice to anticipate pitch and spool effects AND for the correction needed to counteract these.

 

F.i. a slight or jerky increase of the throttle will - in the FA18C - also spool up the engine which will give a lag effect in speed increase AND will slightly pitch up, where cutting throttle to stop the effects will result in the opposites.

 

What I do is always watch the VVS compared to the HUD neutral pitch bar, which is your main anchor in what state of movement your aircraft is. F.i. if the VVS is slightly up and you need to decrease distance that needs to be level by eye sight, it's a bad idea to just increase throttle. And so forth.

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For the first time today, I've managed to stay connected, apart from a couple of those momentary separations, until my tanks were fully loaded.

 

I think that the main reason is an improvement in my throttle control. I make very minor alternate movements, up or down, on each of the throttle levers and this makes it easier to close on the tanker under control and then to match its speed. Moving both levers together was a bit hit and miss for me, with the aforementioned lag and a tendency to over correct.

 

I'm sure I've seen somewhere that this is how pilots control thrust in RL, but can't remember where.

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That’s probably different for everyone, if I look at the basket I always get oscillations when I get close to the basket.

if you understand how to recognize and respond to pio you can look at whatever you want and be fine

 

i personally think being able to counter pio is fundamental to proficiency in handling aircraft

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if you understand how to recognize and respond to pio you can look at whatever you want and be fine

 

i personally think being able to counter pio is fundamental to proficiency in handling aircraft

 

Very well said:thumbup:

 

(pio=pilot-induced oscillations)

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Something else that may not have been mentioned yet. I didn’t worry about AAR until I had VR setup. I find it is much easier in VR with 3D and all the other things that can provide depth perception.

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I don't want to be that guy but I couldn't AAR until I got VR and a TM Warthog. That beig said, I know plenty of people that do just fine on a 2D screen and TrackIR. It really comes down to the individual, and hours of practice, even with VR and a high end Hotas.

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