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Increase brake effectiveness in F/A-18C


derociliGDDCS
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Hi and welcome to the forum.

 

The brakes are correct, be sure to check your weight before landing it can increase the roll out.

 

From memory it is around 33k or below for landing, you can check your weight in the checklist page in the DDI.

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You can come to a complete stop in about 500 feet if you do it correctly on an aircraft carrier. Don't even need brakes. Just a tail hook.

 

I'm kidding!:pilotfly:

The Hornet is best at killing things on the ground. Now, if we could just get a GAU-8 in the nose next to the AN/APG-65, a titanium tub around the pilot, and a couple of J-58 engines in the tail...

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The OP is not talking about arrested landings. Neither the tailhook nor the 33,000 lbs limit applies here, these apply to carrier landings.

He's talking about landing on runways and I agree with him, the brakes should be a little more effective. I often take longer to stop than I should.

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Can someone tell me what aircraft configuration, and airport this is being evaluated on? I want to go test this, because something doesn't add up. On a field landing, I never touch the wheel brakes, the jet slows down and can make a safe runway exit at the departure end. Not saying one is right or wrong, but I need to test this to fully understand the problem.

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I often take longer to stop than I should.

 

Be sure to move the throttle to ground idle! Else, you're still in-flight idle, which produces a few percent-points more of thrust than ground idle and makes stopping unnecessarily harder. :thumbup:

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Yeah, I never have a problem with breaking on any airfield I've ever landed on but that does not mean an improvement cant be made. You need actual data to back it up if you want ED attention otherwise well.... good luck.

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Be sure to move the throttle to ground idle! Else, you're still in-flight idle, which produces a few percent-points more of thrust than ground idle and makes stopping unnecessarily harder.
I was recently made aware of that. I want to test some more, but still, the brakes do seem a tad ineffective for me.

BTW, because this is the best way to confirm it, does anyone know the minimum runway length for the Hornet? If our Hornet's stopping distance is more or less around the real one, then it's correct and we can stop talking about it.

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IRL the brakes aren't that effective in the hornet, the tires are bigger, have less grip, and are a lot more inflated when compared with ones on jets designed for field landings. The hornet is able too make field landings but it was designed for the boat, every aspect of it.

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I don't know why ED continues to claim that the brakes (or more precisely the anti skid) is working correctly.

 

1. Landing roll is basically identical without antiskid (and locked wheels) and with antiskid, which is impossible IRL.

2. In both cases the landing roll is approximately 50% longer than the values in the -1.

 

If you post this bug in the bug section, it's immediately moved over to the whish list.

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Slightly off topic, but the point is raised a few posts earlier, so I will ask here.

 

I have seen several reference to putting the throttle to IDLE on landing, almost as though there is a Gate, through which the throttle must be retracted. I use a TM Warthog throttle set, and the only Gate I know of is the engine shut down Gate.

 

Can anyone enlighten me about how one selects IDLE without shutting down the engine?

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It's about the retractable flight idle gate in the real F/A-18. When pulling the throttles back to the idle stop in flight, rpm will be higher than when pulling the throttles to idle on ground.

Since you shouldn't land the F/A-18 at idle thrust, the problem of having flight idle on ground after touchdown shouldn't be a factor.

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If the runway is very looong you can of course do a nicely flared landing. :)

 

 

Yes you can. And I noticed that my X52 throttle reaches flight idle before the end of the way back. So I can flare and land with flight idle and simply pull the rest of the way back to have ground idle as soon as I have Wow.

 

 

 

But I got used to not flaring the Hornet, anyway.

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From a fairly basic test, using a Warthog HOTAS to land the F18, it would appear that if you pull the throttles back after touchdown, the Ground Idle setting is selected (thrust around 63-65%), whereas if you pull them back before touchdown, which i'm not sure is a good idea, the throttles remain at Flight Idle (around 70%) after touchdown and you need to apply a little throttle and drop it back again, to get to Ground idle.

 

Given the apparently preferred procedure for landing, i would expect that most pilots would wait until touchdown before cutting throttle, but i was personally interested in checking this out, given that there is only one idle detente as standard on the WH, so thought i'd share.

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I don’t have any problems braking. Are you guys using full aft stick under 100 knots, along with the speed brake?

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I don’t have any problems braking. Are you guys using full aft stick under 100 knots, along with the speed brake?

 

That's a good point as that will indeed shorten your landing run. Be sure to give it a try. This is how they do it irl I believe.

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I don’t have any problems braking. Are you guys using full aft stick under 100 knots, along with the speed brake?

A few of us have done countless tests in various configurations and since this is standard procedure, yes.

 

Again. If the distance is the same with locked wheels and a working antiskid, there's something seriously wrong.

 

Even if you forget to extend the speed brake and to apply full aft stick, this wouldn't account for a 50% increase ;)

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A few of us have done countless tests in various configurations and since this is standard procedure, yes.

 

Again. If the distance is the same with locked wheels and a working antiskid, there's something seriously wrong.

 

Even if you forget to extend the speed brake and to apply full aft stick, this wouldn't account for a 50% increase ;)

 

What chart are you using to determine this? Please post it so others can confirm your results.

 

I just flew a quick test.

 

Batumi Standard Day No Wind

 

Weight at Touchdown 36400 lbs

 

Chart says ground roll of 3900 feet. I stopped in 4100 feet. I was a half second late getting full brake pressure on touchdown.

 

I would say there is either a misunderstanding of the chart or the technique involved in duplicating the results.


Edited by pmiceli

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The OP is not talking about arrested landings. Neither the tailhook nor the 33,000 lbs limit applies here, these apply to carrier landings.

He's talking about landing on runways and I agree with him, the brakes should be a little more effective. I often take longer to stop than I should.

 

There is a 39,000lbs limit for field landing (flared). Otherwise, the 33,000lbs limit DOES apply at the field.

 

There's going to be a big difference in stopping distance between a 130kts / 30,000lbs approach compared to screaming in at 150kts / 50,000lbs.

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1. What chart are you using to determine this? Please post it so others can confirm your results.

 

2. Chart says ground roll of 3900 feet. I stopped in 4100 feet.

 

3. I would say there is either a misunderstanding of the chart or the technique involved in duplicating the results.

1. A1-F18AC-NFM-200 Fig 11-161 and 11-162

 

2. Why did you test outside the weight limit since you need to flare above 33000lbs?

 

3. Did you maintain the 143kts and the thrust setting all the way to touchdown?

 

Suggest you test again within the airplane limit for no-flare landings e.g. at 28000 and 32000lbs.

 

And again, the distance shouldn't be the same with locked wheels and full antiskid braking.

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1. A1-F18AC-NFM-200 Fig 11-161 and 11-162

 

2. Why did you test outside the weight limit since you need to flare above 33000lbs?

 

3. Did you maintain the 143kts and the thrust setting all the way to touchdown?

 

Suggest you test again within the airplane limit for no-flare landings e.g. at 28000 and 32000lbs.

 

And again, the distance shouldn't be the same with locked wheels and full antiskid braking.

 

Ground roll does not change. Flaring only puts the touchdown point further down the runway but does not change the ground roll distance.

 

I suspect this is where you are making the mistake.

 

The chart presents ground roll distance. The distance from touchdown to full stop.

 

Testing at higher weights is more valid for brake effectiveness but I am sure I can replicate my results at any weight.

 

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1. Ground roll does not change. Flaring only puts the touchdown point further down the runway but does not change the ground roll distance.

 

2. I suspect this is where you are making the mistake.

 

3.Testing at higher weights is more valid for brake effectiveness but I am sure I can replicate my results at any weight.

1. If you flare it takes longer to get the weight onto the wheels after touchdown.

 

2. ? The correct procedure is to maintain thrust and attitude to touchdown.

 

3. I'm looking forward to the results (with the correct stable thrust & attitude/speed method)


Edited by bbrz

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There is a 39,000lbs limit for field landing (flared). Otherwise, the 33,000lbs limit DOES apply at the field.

 

There's going to be a big difference in stopping distance between a 130kts / 30,000lbs approach compared to screaming in at 150kts / 50,000lbs.

Fair enough, I wasn't clear. I was referring to a flared landing. For the record, I have zero issues stopping, it just takes slightly longer than I expect.

 

For example, coming in at around 32,000lbs and flaring slightly before touchdown (I was carrying the Litening), going ground idle, extending the speedbrake and pulling the stick back below 100 knots, I usually take longer to stop than what I'd expect. Sometimes I end up at the end of the runway, something that doesn't really happen with other modules (Mirage, Warthog. I have the F-14 but haven't flown it in a while, so I don't remember).

 

I could be totally wrong and the brakes might work fine btw, maybe the Hornet has less effective brakes IRL, like someone said above.

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