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Case I break turn


stenji
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According to https://wiki.hoggitworld.com/view/Carrier_Air_Operations the break turn should be 45 - 50 banking degrees or 10% G force on airspeed. But if I use the airbrakes I do not need to push the G's to 3.3. Beside, if I break 50 degrees I cannot mantain 800 ft till the end of the break. It is quite more simple with a 80 degrees banking turn to level the airplane. Don't you agree?

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I've always ignored the overly complex numbers and just done it by feel. I do whatever I need to do to arrive configured downwind, trimmed on-speed, and 1.1-1.2nm, while respecting:

 

1. pattern altitudes

2. gear-down speeds

3. flap-down speeds

 

To be honest when people throw all these numbers like "x degrees of bank", "1% of G on airspeed", or "8.1 degrees AoA," it just makes things unnecessarily difficult.

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I've always ignored the overly complex numbers and just done it by feel. I do whatever I need to do to arrive configured downwind, trimmed on-speed, and 1.1-1.2nm, while respecting:

 

1. pattern altitudes

2. gear-down speeds

3. flap-down speeds

 

To be honest when people throw all these numbers like "x degrees of bank", "1% of G on airspeed", or "8.1 degrees AoA," it just makes things unnecessarily difficult.

 

Couldn't agree more!

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I recommend you watch this video (and the next 2 in the series) from Lex, who flew the F-18C for the Navy. Super detail explanation on flying the Case I recovery.

 

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To be honest when people throw all these numbers like "x degrees of bank", "1% of G on airspeed", or "8.1 degrees AoA," it just makes things unnecessarily difficult.
Yes. I've heard some comments from Hornet pilot about using those numbers – "it's not an airliner".
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I do the following and consistently get good results, hopefully it works for you:

 

Considering a 350-400 kt overhead speed, break at 3.5 to 4 Gs. You'll notice that to acocmplish this turn you'll pretty much be flying with the wings perpendicular to the ground, just like you noticed. I don't buy into that 40-50 degree aob thing. Do what needs to be done. Around 90 degrees into the turn ease off to around 2 Gs. and continuing easing off as you reach the BRC reciprocal. If you break further than a 1 NM from the bow, maintain a level break. If you break over the bow or closer to it than a mile away, I recommend foregoing the level break and starting a descent to 600' once you reach the break's "90", or else you'll arrive at the abeam too high and not configured for AOA. This tidbit of infomation I got from one of the rw drivers that frequented this forum. If you worry too much about a level break and you're leading a 4-ship at 400 kts where you have to break early, you'll be high at the abeam.

 

Flaps and gear come down as soon as you reach 250, no matter where that happens in the turn. Do some of that pilot sh!t to avoid the ballooning effect. I find trimming for on-speed on-AOA one of the hardest parts of all this. But all rw drivers out there say it's actually easier in the real bird, specially the post-lot 20 airframes that will tell you on the HUD what AOA you're trimmed for. A good rule of thumb is about 3 seconds of trim actively being held to achieve on speed on-aoa.

 

It takes a lot of practice and like Lex said, a good pass starts all the way back in your break.


Edited by victorlima01
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I've always ignored the overly complex numbers and just done it by feel. I do whatever I need to do to arrive configured downwind, trimmed on-speed, and 1.1-1.2nm, while respecting:

 

1. pattern altitudes

2. gear-down speeds

3. flap-down speeds

 

To be honest when people throw all these numbers like "x degrees of bank", "1% of G on airspeed", or "8.1 degrees AoA," it just makes things unnecessarily difficult.

 

Same here Nealius. The feel and the key speeds, distance and altitudes at certain points in the pattern has been my focus. I can, for the most part, trap on the first approach.

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I've always ignored the overly complex numbers and just done it by feel. I do whatever I need to do to arrive configured downwind, trimmed on-speed, and 1.1-1.2nm, while respecting:

 

1. pattern altitudes

2. gear-down speeds

3. flap-down speeds

 

To be honest when people throw all these numbers like "x degrees of bank", "1% of G on airspeed", or "8.1 degrees AoA," it just makes things unnecessarily difficult.

 

Those numbers aren't necessarily gospel, but they are a good place to start. "Do that pilot shit" is what you want to end up doing, but that only comes with experience. You can only figure out where you can deviate from procedure if you know what "right" looks like.

 

For what it's worth, T-45 students nowadays typically do either a 1% of airspeed G pull or a 17-unit AOA (on-speed for that aircraft) pull. The G technique has always worked pretty well for me in the F/A-18, but an 8.1-degree AOA pull should work, too.

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The problem I have with the 1% of G and the 8.1 AoA is:

 

1) 1% of G doesn't work for me in the Hornet. Following that number puts me at 0.7-0.8nm abeam. Way too close. To get 1.1-1.2nm abeam I have to pull 3.0G initially, then ease off (more like 0.9% or 0.85% of G) to get there.

 

2) 8.1 isn't even indicated as a number in our Hornet in landing config. You have an E-bracket and the yellow donut. That's it. '8.1' is useless information in this context. Many of the netizens I run into that throw out all these details in discussion forums are just appendage-waving: "Look at how much I know!" and they over-complicate things with their need for validation. I have seen so many threads get derailed with technical-knowledge-cock-fights while poor OP didn't get his question answered reasonably...it's sad. There's a place for all the technical minutiae, and there's a place for more simple instruction. Not many people can figure out which is where. Kinda ran off on a tangent there but that's generally what I dislike about overly technical descriptions given to newbies. Or even non-newbies.

 

I haven't heard of the 8.1 pull. Only 8.1 in reference to on-speed AoA once configured. I might give that a shot since the 1% of G never works. Now technically those number can all be avoided by running many of the pre-made CASE I training missions. They usually put a ship somewhere between 1.1-1.3nm. In that case you don't need to bother with the numbers to learn "that pilot shit," and you can just do it visually. Then go back, watch your numbers while you do it visually, then carry over those numbers once the "training wheels" are off if you need to, or just do it all by feel from that point.


Edited by Nealius

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According to https://wiki.hoggitworld.com/view/Carrier_Air_Operations the break turn should be 45 - 50 banking degrees or 10% G force on airspeed. But if I use the airbrakes I do not need to push the G's to 3.3. Beside, if I break 50 degrees I cannot mantain 800 ft till the end of the break. It is quite more simple with a 80 degrees banking turn to level the airplane. Don't you agree?

 

The pilots I've talked to all say the same thing essentially, "do that pilot sh!t" to maintain altitude during the break and hit your abeam distance. There are different techniques to do this.

 

Like Razi has said.

 

You can play with the bank to control the lift, it's that pilot stuff.

 

The whole thing (Case 1) is dynamic and moving, including the boat, wind / turbulence.... Each part is a goal to correct and or aim for. The aim is to do each leg as good as you can and be safe.

 

This will then set you up in the groove hopefully, it's all designed around speed, efficiency, safety. Lots of practice. IRL it would always be different. Wind, sea state etc.

 

It's not about being exactly perfect when doing the case 1 break etc. It's about being safe and putting it down safely every time and adjusting for any conditions you encounter when doing it.

 

The case 1 is practiced a lot, to be (second nature), way before you see a carrier.

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I haven't heard of the 8.1 pull. Only 8.1 in reference to on-speed AoA once configured. I might give that a shot since the 1% of G never works. Now technically those number can all be avoided by running many of the pre-made CASE I training missions. They usually put a ship somewhere between 1.1-1.3nm. In that case you don't need to bother with the numbers to learn "that pilot shit," and you can just do it visually. Then go back, watch your numbers while you do it visually, then carry over those numbers once the "training wheels" are off if you need to, or just do it all by feel from that point.

 

8.1 pull isn't written anywhere that I know of; it's just a T-45 technique adapted for F/A-18 parameters. Again, just something to try and maybe play around with until you find the technique that works for you.

 

In my own experience - the 1% G rule is for the *initial* pull. Along with the speed brake, it's to help you reach 250 by the halfway point of the break turn. Once you drop gear and flaps, all bets are off. You do what you have to do to roll out on downwind 1.1-1.3 nm on-speed. For me on a standard no-wind day, that's typically relaxing pitch (maybe even adding some forward stick pressure) enough to keep from ballooning (since the flaps just added a ton of lift) and shallowing my roll angle to 30-40 degrees. This is *really* where you have to just do that pilot shit.

 

As far as just doing it visually - that *is* actually what you'd aim for when doing field landings when you can pick some sort of ground checkpoint to fly over consistently. But, as you were getting at, the whole point of this is to be able to fly the Case 1 pattern at the boat where you will realistically not have visual checkpoints.

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