the R-27et.

[superdunkaroos]

i have a few questions about the r27et since it is the only long range missile that is very close to a fire and forget kind..now is it possible to launch the missile and turn off ur radar so it would seem to the enemy that he is safe?

 

does the missile have enough brains to seek the target after reaching its waypoint?

 

this is what ive tried: 5-10 secs after i get the LA ..i fire the missile and 3-6 secs into the launch turn off the radar. this is su33 vs f 15 both at 5000 and doing 700km/h about 40-50 km apart,head on.

ive had mixed results sometimes the missile tracks it and sometimes it doesnt(checked using f6 view).

and sometimes the f-15 tries to doge the missile...how does he do that? is the a.i able to recognize smoke trails?...because my radar is switched off.

 

could some please explain the working of the R27et in detail?...right from lauch to terminal stage.

 

do u guys use this technique online? seems usable to me.

[Shaman]

Try searching forums. Concerning R-27ET there are threads with like 1000 posts. :D

[p_o_d_2_2]

I'm by no means an expert, but IIRC, the ET is an IR guided missile, so it does not need radar to track, and the target should not know its coming unless he sees the missile.

[superdunkaroos]

exactly my point...the f-15's RWR in no way shoud be able to tell of an approaching IR missile.

[GGTharos]

On the other hand, I might see it, or better yet, what works for me is to just assume you've launched it since you can load it, and practice some IRCM to ensure it's fooled from the get go ;)

The R-27ET should not be able to launch without a seeker lock, something that's been overlooked in this patch.

[Pilotasso]

Try searching forums. Concerning R-27ET there are threads with like 1000 posts. :D

 

Yes, enough has been said about it. Just search it. :)

[3Sqn_Sven]

On the other hand, I might see it, or better yet, what works for me is to just assume you've launched it since you can load it, and practice some IRCM to ensure it's fooled from the get go ;)

The R-27ET should not be able to launch without a seeker lock, something that's been overlooked in this patch.

 

Has anyone tested if closing the throttles has any effects on IR missiles in the current version of lock on?

 

I tested this in 1.02 a few years back and it had nil effect as far as we could tell.

[GGTharos]

I have. And yes, it does - it even affects EOS. It's more of a matter of dropping out of burner than going idle, I'm not sure if the latter has much effect.

Closing the throttles reduces the simulated target temperature, making flares appear hotter (and thus targettable from farther away than the aircraft) which can make defeating a long range ET shot pretty easy if you do it right.

It wasn't a scientific study though ... I'll try to come up with one in a few weeks if I don't forget.

[Force_Feedback]

I know that anti IR seekers on the real su-27 you have to disable the afterburner (it's a toggle on the real one) and enable the 2 flare dispersing program.

[graywo1fg]

i always throttle down when i know a heat missile has been fired on me i do think it really helps :D along with a few flares :P

[RvETito]

Has anyone tested if closing the throttles has any effects on IR missiles in the current version of lock on?

 

I tested this in 1.02 a few years back and it had nil effect as far as we could tell.

 

I've done it as well. Do the following- fly head on with somebody and use EOS only, then tell him to kick the burner- you'll be surprised- the ET will have LA at 20-25km (haven't tested it further). Then tell him to cut the burner- the LA will disappear.

 

As for dodging it- in =RvE= we often used to practice it (whazzup Yoda ;))- waiting for LA without burner in head on (8-9km) then the attacker launch one ET. It turned out that it's not necessary to do a high G break turn, pointing your nose toward the missile (hiding your nozzles from it's seeker) with engines at or almost at idle with a couple of flares usualy works fine even if you fly slow (400-500km/h). But even if the missile is in perfect tail on pursuit cutting the throttle is the key to dodge accompanied by few flares. The problem is that at the end of this you'll find yourself in low energy status and if there are ARH or SARH missiles inbound you are pretty much toasted :D

[GGTharos]

Your wingman better be on the ball!

[tflash]

ive had mixed results sometimes the missile tracks it and sometimes it doesnt(checked using f6 view).

and sometimes the f-15 tries to doge the missile...how does he do that? is the a.i able to recognize smoke trails?...because my radar is switched off.

 

could some please explain the working of the R27et in detail?...right from lauch to terminal stage.

 

do u guys use this technique online? seems usable to me.

 

F6 view? Do you mean against AI in a single user game? You must realize the AI has a totally unrealistic "über-awareness". Of course they will try to evade the missile, since the AI "knows" absolutely everything in this game.

[Frostie]

and sometimes the f-15 tries to doge the missile...how does he do that? is the a.i able to recognize smoke trails?...because my radar is switched off.

The AI telepathically knows when you fire - even if your underneath his six, a bit of a pain in ass for practice.

[192nd_Erdem]

On the other hand, I might see it, or better yet, what works for me is to just assume you've launched it since you can load it, and practice some IRCM to ensure it's fooled from the get go ;)

The R-27ET should not be able to launch without a seeker lock, something that's been overlooked in this patch.

 

Got source?

[RvEPaploo]

for sure throttle have got effect sven ;)

 

I m working with my panel instrument, the heat inducator to dodge Alamo IR or archer, check those indicator and you ll find some interresting stuff .Like for example dodging ET with one flare only ;) . btw, about this indicator, it is pitty, coz i dont see any inertial effect on it.

[GGTharos]

The MiG 29 and Flanker SK manuals indicate that the only way to launch the ET or 73 without a seeker lock is an emergency mode reserved for when you need to jettison the missiles. Some of the pylons do not have pyrotechnics to blow the missiles off the pylons, so you launch them instead, but they are unguided.

 

All other modes of use require a seeker lock, and the FCS will not allow launch without it.

 

Got source?

[Force_Feedback]

None of the Russian pylons have any pyrotechnics, planes are explosive enough as they are, so that's why the AKU-pylons use nitrogen pressure and the others just launch the ordnance. Basically the same way as you would launch a missile, no emergency jettison mechanisms with cartridges or explosive bolts on those. Kind of finger-friendly :P

The ET and R-73 do have modes for them to work when the cooling bottle is empty or some defect made the seeker cooler inoperative, but they still require for the seeker to lock the target.

The only Russian A-A heat seekers with LOAL are the R-73RDM2 (the backward firing one) and the R-74, aka the R-73M with a focal plane array, 90 degree desigation limit and 120 degree off-bore seeker limit.

The ET is an obsolete missile, designed for shooting down fleeing aircraft, but with no standoff/offensive capabilities because of the IR seeker and lack of datalink and high res IR array.

[Kula66]

Yes, Soviet designers made a bad job with R-27ET. Lack of LOAL capability is understandable for short range R-60M, R-73 missiles but surely not for R-2727ET! Without datalink and good IR seeker this missile constitutes unneeded ballast for carrying fighter. On the other hand R-27ER with datalink and LOAL mode would pose a great threat for any enemy fighter. What a pity Russians didn't think perspectively about it when there were many funds available...

 

 

The ET was designed with a specific scenario in mind ... you have a fleeing Tornado or F-111 on AB, 3 miles ahead. If you fire a 73, it hasn't got the legs and will miss. So, marry an IR seeker with a big motor that you already have in use ... I wish Western designers thought out of the box too!

 

I thought the problem with LOAL for an IR seeker is the FOV is very narrow and you have to point the head at the target. This isn't a problem for the ER, its homing in on reflected energy and the active seeker weapons have a big FOV.

[GGTharos]

The problem is with the seeker going after targets in potential clutter. The MiG-25, designed to engage the Valkyrie bomber at very high altitudes did not have such a problem to deal with - therefore its IR missile did have a datalink.

[superdunkaroos]

does the ET seeker go active after launch? or before launch?

[RvETito]

Actualy it's completely passive :D If you ask whether it has to lock the target before launch- the answer is yes.

[Pilotasso]

The ET seeker like all heat seekers of that generation has a lock before launch. It IS handy in chaces, where the R-73 cant cope with an afterburning bandit in retreat. However I have long decided to use the ER as my principal weapon when flying the russian SU's. You do not always have desirable combat persistence with only 4 ER's when the ET's only come live at 15-20km.

[RvETito]

The biggest advantage of the R-27ET (like any other IR missile) is the sneak attack capability and radar independance. Actualy AFAIK that's one of the reasons that has pushed it's developement- in conditions of severe ECM where SARH missiles are close to useless it could provide some longer sticks when in a chase. Not in LO though, ERs are great in HOJ.

[GGTharos]

Yep, and again these differences do not appear to be modeled in LO, but I may be wrong: Most old SARH missiles should have issues in a tailchase, and with ECM and countermeasures to boot, they should be having real trouble. They should, on the other hand, fare MUCH better in head-on situations. When you start getting to late sparrow and amraam/adder class missiles, these rear-aspect problems would be handled a lot better, but they would still be there.

 

Only when such things are modelled will you REALLY see the value of the R-27ET.

 

Remember, these things weren't really meant to be used on fighter from the get-go, though they could be ... their purpose in life was to run down B-52s and B-1B's on high-speed nuclear delivery runs, when the SARH missiles would fail. The purpose of these missiles is homeland defense!