[NO BUG] No AP : indicator?

[cofcorpse]

It appears that when I move the stick there is a certain smaller point of movement which removes the colon from the BALT setting. And a larger level of movement which removes/Disables the BALT AP.

 

This is correct. When BALT or RALT is engaged and you move your stick, autopilot changes its mode to CSS (control stick steering) and removes the colon, and only if stick deflection is big, BALT disengages. you can verify this by looking at the advisory line on the left DDI - when you first move stick, BALT advisory changes to A/P.

I looked your track and didn't find any error

[Snacko]

Ok. I didn't know about the CSS Mode. So this seems to be user error/lack of knowledge. Thanks.

 

That is probably why Tom thought a deadzone might prevent, what I said was BALT disengaging.

 

 

 

Sent from my Moto Z Play using Tapatalk

[Tom Kazansky]

This is correct. When BALT or RALT is engaged and you move your stick, autopilot changes its mode to CSS (control stick steering) and removes the colon, and only if stick deflection is big, BALT disengages. you can verify this by looking at the advisory line on the left DDI - when you first move stick, BALT advisory changes to A/P.

I looked your track and didn't find any error

 

 

have to thank you too for telling us the name of this CSS mode (;))

[Chops]

This is correct. When BALT or RALT is engaged and you move your stick, autopilot changes its mode to CSS (control stick steering) and removes the colon, and only if stick deflection is big, BALT disengages. you can verify this by looking at the advisory line on the left DDI - when you first move stick, BALT advisory changes to A/P.

I looked your track and didn't find any error

 

 

Is there any documentation about CSS mode and how it works?

 

 

The only reason we are moving the stick is because the [:] is not displaying after we click on BALT.

 

 

The [:] not appearing is still the issue, and obviously a bug. I am not sure why you have flagged this as no bug.

[Tom Kazansky]

It is not a bug. The : disappears as soon as you move the stick in vertical direction just a bit too much. After that the css mode is active. Youl can see the state of the AP in the lower line of the left ddi as been said above.

 

 

Some people confuse this with a ALT hold mode with disappeared :

 

 

But that is not the case. The css mode is turned off by turning the AP off.

 

 

It is like I said some posts earlier, if your stick is easily deflecting out of y-axis idle the : disappears really fast or even won't appear at all. I had reproduced this behaviour on my system that does not have this issue by deflecting the y-axis just that much the track shows. So: no bug.

 

 

 

Maybe it would help if ED enlarges the zone around F-5idle just a bit.

 

 

 

To make peace with the css mode I recommend using it while air to air refuelling ;)

 

 

btw this issue reminds me if the F-15C AP problem. Lots had no problems and others had. Caus of a very narrow zone in which the stick has to be hold.

[Chops]

It is not a bug. The : disappears as soon as you move the stick in vertical direction just a bit too much. After that the css mode is active. Youl can see the state of the AP in the lower line of the left ddi as been said above.

 

 

Some people confuse this with a ALT hold mode with disappeared :

 

 

But that is not the case. The css mode is turned off by turning the AP off.

 

 

It is like I said some posts earlier, if your stick is easily deflecting out of y-axis idle the : disappears really fast or even won't appear at all. I had reproduced this behaviour on my system that does not have this issue by deflecting the y-axis just that much the track shows. So: no bug.

 

 

 

Maybe it would help if ED enlarges the zone around F-5idle just a bit.

 

 

 

To make peace with the css mode I recommend using it while air to air refuelling ;)

 

 

btw this issue reminds me if the F-15C AP problem. Lots had no problems and others had. Caus of a very narrow zone in which the stick has to be hold.

 

 

Please describe the purpose of CSS, and when and how it should be used.

 

 

How can CSS be used for Air to Air Refueling?

 

 

I have a CH Products FighterStick which is probably why I am having issues.

 

 

What type of Control Stick do you use?

[bbrz]

Please describe the purpose of CSS, and when and how it should be used.

 

CSS still leaves you in control of the airplane. Inputs are just heavily dampened since the AP is still flying the airplane.

 

It's similar to the CWS in e.g. the DC-10 and remotely comparable to manual flying the Viggen or an A320.

 

ATTH, HSEL, BALT, RALT and CPL are autopilot submodes. The AP maintains altitude, heading, etc. and CSS allows you to 'interfere' with the AP modes without disengaging the AP.

[Tom Kazansky]

Please describe the purpose of CSS, and when and how it should be used.

 

 

How can CSS be used for Air to Air Refueling?

 

 

I have a CH Products FighterStick which is probably why I am having issues.

 

 

What type of Control Stick do you use?

 

 

bbrz described CSS very good. That AP flies the plane and you give small corrections with the stick. It's almost like a cheat for AA refuelling. I bet it is not allowed IRL to use it for AAR.

 

 

I changed my stick caus I had similar problems with holding the F-15C autopilot. It was such a tiny little deflection that made the difference.

 

 

I had a Saitek X52 for more than 10 years. I was looking for a HOTAS that is not 300+ EUR. And guess what? I tested a Logitech X52 for 80 EUR for my son. It looks exactly the same but was day and night with no deadzone and perfectly smooth reaction symmetrically to both sides. So I ordered another one for me. Which was as good as the first one. Maybe luck but it feels so differently that I believe Logitech did something good.

 

 

AP works at both F-15C and F-18C even without CSS. AAR and carrier approaches are pure joy now. A/G attacks with free falling bombs are now easy. Well the stick is more important than I thought while these long Saitek years.

 

 

However I feel with all of those who don't have this joy yet. So I don't see why ED should not implement larger zones for AP of the problematic aircraft. If it is unrealistic: make a checkbox in options like Warthog's FA18C slew solution. It would be a great thing for users with non perfect equipment.

[imacken]

This is a very interesting thread. I've been wondering for a long time now why when I unselect BALT I get a A/P in the advisories as well as the aircraft still being controlled by the A/P despite there being nothing selected with a :.

I have noticed that if the pitch is greater than +8 degrees, then BALT will not engage, yet it seems to work for almost any negative pitch.

Why is that?

[cofcorpse]

btw this issue reminds me if the F-15C AP problem. Lots had no problems and others had. Caus of a very narrow zone in which the stick has to be hold.

 

Yes, you are correct, it's just like in F-15C. Increase of a zone would not be a good solution, as not everyone encounter this problem. I can suggest to make a small, 3-4 (fdepends on you joystick), deadzone at controls adjustments for pitch and roll axis.

[cofcorpse]

I've been wondering for a long time now why when I unselect BALT I get a A/P in the advisories as well as the aircraft still being controlled by the A/P despite there being nothing selected with a :.

 

It is slightly a different case, because When you turn BALT (RALT and other modes with :), autopilot is engaged in the main mode, and this mode remains engaged when you turn BALT (and others) off. What is indicated by A/P advisory. To completely disengage autopilot in BALT mode, you should press Autopilot disengage switch (paddle switch) on a stick.

 

I have noticed that if the pitch is greater than +8 degrees, then BALT will not engage, yet it seems to work for almost any negative pitch.

Why is that?

 

There are some restrictions for turning BALT on. For example, your vertical velocity should be less than 6000 fpm, roll angle should be less than 70 degrees and others.

[Tom Kazansky]

Yes, you are correct, it's just like in F-15C. Increase of a zone would not be a good solution, as not everyone encounter this problem. I can suggest to make a small, 3-4 (fdepends on you joystick), deadzone at controls adjustments for pitch and roll axis.

 

 

I don't like deadzones. I've been waiting years to get rid of mine. I suggested an option for DCS for those who still have a stick that is not 100% prefect in the centre position. A larger zone where the : modes stay engaged. Would help Eagle drivers too. But just as an option if the actual zone is absolutely realistic.

[imacken]

It is slightly a different case, because When you turn BALT (RALT and other modes with :), autopilot is engaged in the main mode, and this mode remains engaged when you turn BALT (and others) off. What is indicated by A/P advisory. To completely disengage autopilot in BALT mode, you should press Autopilot disengage switch (paddle switch) on a stick.

Thanks, I just wasn't sure what the A/P mode was, but this thread has explained it.

 

There are some restrictions for turning BALT on. For example, your vertical velocity should be less than 6000 fpm, roll angle should be less than 70 degrees and others.

I'm sure there are restrictions, but it would be nice to know what they are as nothing is stated in the manual AFAICS, and try as I may, I can't work it out! I've tried different pitch angles, speeds, vertical velocities both up and down and I can't see the pattern!

(BTW, it definitely works with VV more than 6000 fpm at times.)

[cofcorpse]

I don't like deadzones. I've been waiting years to get rid of mine. I suggested an option for DCS for those who still have a stick that is not 100% prefect in the centre position. A larger zone where the : modes stay engaged. Would help Eagle drivers too. But just as an option if the actual zone is absolutely realistic.

 

If you have no problems with a joystick in center (jitter or something like this), then why do you need to increase the zone for the autopilot? Just put the joystick to the neutral.

[Tom Kazansky]

I'm sure there are restrictions, but it would be nice to know what they are as nothing is stated in the manual AFAICS, and try as I may, I can't work it out! I've tried different pitch angles, speeds, vertical velocities both up and down and I can't see the pattern!

(BTW, it definitely works with VV more than 6000 fpm at times.)

 

 

it seems to me that there is a restriction in angle of deflection of the HOTAS stick.

[Tom Kazansky]

If you have no problems with a joystick in center (jitter or something like this), then why do you need to increase the zone for the autopilot? Just put the joystick to the neutral.

 

 

You are absolutely right. I did not make myself clear enough. sorry. I don't have any problems now. I just feel with the others caus I was one of them over years.

 

 

A larger AP tolerant zone (as an option) would help all those who don't have perfect sticks or don't like to enlarge their deadzones (what is a real pain, as I know myself).

 

 

But if it is totally unrealistic and unwanted, caus deadzones do the job, it's ok by me (now) ;)

[Snacko]

AP works at both F-15C and F-18C even without CSS. AAR and carrier approaches are pure joy now. A/G attacks with free falling bombs are now easy. Well the stick is more important than I thought while these long Saitek years.

 

Could you explain how you can use the AP/CSS when landing on carriers (in the pattern), and free fall bombing?

 

And do you have a joystick button dedicated to the AP?

 

Sent from my Moto Z Play using Tapatalk

[bbrz]

Can't imagine that you would use the AP/CSS in anything but cruise like conditions IRL.

[CrimsonGhost]

FWIW, I too have recently started experiencing the same issue as the OP. I have removed all my mods prior to today’s update but am still having the issue. Don’t know if it is even remotely possible but my problems started when I changed out the stick on WarBRD base from the standard Warthog to the Hornet stick. Will have to swap it back and see if there is something too it. Maybe the different force from the Hornet stick is keeping the base from maintaining its center.

[Tom Kazansky]

Could you explain how you can use the AP/CSS when landing on carriers (in the pattern), and free fall bombing?

 

And do you have a joystick button dedicated to the AP?

 

Sent from my Moto Z Play using Tapatalk

 

 

I didn't mean I use CSS with bombing and landing. I wanted to state that a good stick makes all those things easy. Sorry but the limits of my English must have been confusing in this point.

 

But AAR is really great with CSS even if it should/must not be used IRL.

 

 

An yes I have all AP related buttons mapped to my HOTAS. But you don't have to. I like it with every plane though.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Tom Kazansky

[Snacko]

I didn't mean I use CSS with bombing and landing. I wanted to state that a good stick makes all those things easy. Sorry but the limits of my English must have been confusing in this point.

 

But AAR is really great with CSS even if it should/must not be used IRL.

 

 

An yes I have all AP related buttons mapped to my HOTAS. But you don't have to. I like it with every plane though.

Ahhh.. OK, got it. Thanks..

 

Sent from my Moto Z Play using Tapatalk

[bbrz]

A larger AP tolerant zone (as an option) would help all those who don't have perfect sticks or don't like to enlarge their deadzones (what is a real pain, as I know myself).

But if it is totally unrealistic and unwanted, caus deadzones do the job, it's ok by me (now) ;)

IMO a very small deadzone like 1-2% is not unrealistic since the stick travel and the force required to move the stick is much greater IRL.

I definitely don't want the flight controls to move when unintentionally moving the stick a tiny amount, since this doesn't happen IRL either.

[Tom Kazansky]

IMO a very small deadzone like 1-2% is not unrealistic since the stick travel and the force required to move the stick is much greater IRL.

I definitely don't want the flight controls to move when unintentionally moving the stick a tiny amount, since this doesn't happen IRL either.

 

 

Do you mean a deadzone or a AP-tolerant zone (when AP is engaged)? I doubt there is a deadzone IRL without knowing. For if you just have tiny unintended movements of the stick you just have tiny movements of the plane. Which shouldn't cause problems.

[bbrz]

Do you mean a deadzone or a AP-tolerant zone (when AP is engaged)? I doubt there is a deadzone IRL without knowing. For if you just have tiny unintended movements of the stick you just have tiny movements of the plane. Which shouldn't cause problems.

A deadzone. Again, IRL on many planes there's a noticable amount of e.g. yoke movement required to achieve a control surface deflection.

The point I'm trying to make is that a very small deadzone doesn't reduce realism.

[Tom Kazansky]

A deadzone. Again, IRL on many planes there's a noticable amount of e.g. yoke movement required to achieve a control surface deflection.

The point I'm trying to make is that a very small deadzone doesn't reduce realism.

 

 

o.k. I got your point now. thanks.