Few small things to improve the Fulcrum combat effectiveness and realism

[BlackPixxel]

Which page of the manual is it?

[Ironhand]

Which page of the manual is it?

I’ll look it up tonight. Away from home ATM.

[BlackPixxel]

Thank you!

[Seaeagle]

No AVT in SNP for the Su-27's radar per the manual but haven't searched through the MiG-29's manual.

 

Shouldn't that be; "no SNP in AVT"? :)

[N22YF]

Which page of the manual is it?

On page 54 of the Su-27 manual and page 47 of the MiG-29 manual:

"СНП" (TWS) mode is only available together with "ППС" (Hi PRF) or "ЗПС" (Med PRF) selected. The interleaved PRF "ABT" mode is not compatible. This mode therefore requires head-on or pursuit target aspect to be known in advance.

 

 

Shouldn't that be; "no SNP in AVT"? :)

In the DCS manual, SNP/OBZ/STT are referred to as acquisition modes while the PRF settings are referred to as sub-modes. So I would say, no AVT [sub-mode] in SNP [mode].

[BlackPixxel]

I meant the real aircraft manuals. FC3 is after all very simplified.

[N22YF]

I meant the real aircraft manuals. FC3 is after all very simplified.

Ah, I thought you were talking about in DCS (FoxAlfa's original post is regarding a bug where you're switched to АВТ uncommanded while in СНП in a specific situation, when in DCS you shouldn't ever be able to be in АВТ in СНП in the first place). On the real-life MiG-29, my understanding is you actually can use СНП in АВТ mode. Maybe that's one to add to the list?

 

Shouldn't that be; "no SNP in AVT"? :)

Ah, if you were also referring to the real-life MiG-29, then yes, АВТ is the radar mode and СНП is more like a sub-mode! But I think Ironhand was also referring to in DCS? :confused:

[Tarres]

4. Of course nav panel/number. Nothing brakes immersion like having to go to F10 map or such.

 

Regarding number 4, even better if the "Auto next WP" could be disabled or at least an option to setup as "auto/manual"·

[Seaeagle]

Ah, if you were also referring to the real-life MiG-29, then yes, АВТ is the radar mode and СНП is more like a sub-mode! But I think Ironhand was also referring to in DCS? :confused:

 

I was :) .

 

In the real MiG-29, СНП is a sub-mode, that can be set for "V"("Encounter") and "D"("Pursuit") main operating modes. As far as I can tell, the toggle switch entitled; "SNP/PPS - ZPS" on the radar panel determines whether to activate it - i.e. in "SNP/PPS" position it is enabled, while in "ZPS" position its disabled. But I am still a little uncertain whether this is the correct interpretation.

 

Apparently SNP sub-mode is not available in "AVT"("Automatic") mode. It could be that AVT itself is there to provide search with automatic alternation between HPRF/MPRF without the need to employ SNP.

 

Still some research to do :)

[Ironhand]

Which page of the manual is it?

I made a quick check of the real world manual and couldn't find what I was looking for. Either I'm conflating the real-world manual with the DCS manual or Fig 21 (?) in the r-w manual made me think that only ППС/ЗПС applied. If I should come across anything, I'll let you know.

[N22YF]

As far as I can tell, the toggle switch entitled; "SNP/PPS - ZPS" on the radar panel determines whether to activate it - i.e. in "SNP/PPS" position it is enabled, while in "ZPS" position its disabled. But I am still a little uncertain whether this is the correct interpretation.

You are correct!

 

Apparently SNP sub-mode is not available in "AVT"("Automatic") mode.

Why do you say that? That's not my understanding.

[Ironhand]

I was :) .

 

In the real MiG-29, СНП is a sub-mode, that can be set for "V"("Encounter") and "D"("Pursuit") main operating modes. As far as I can tell, the toggle switch entitled; "SNP/PPS - ZPS" on the radar panel determines whether to activate it - i.e. in "SNP/PPS" position it is enabled, while in "ZPS" position its disabled. But I am still a little uncertain whether this is the correct interpretation...

You think you are misinterpreting that switch. The СНП switch has two positions: PPS (Front Hemisphere or Encounter) and ZPS (Rear Hemisphere or Pursuit). It’s not an on/off switch. OKTL would be “off”.

[N22YF]

You think you are misinterpreting that switch. The СНП switch has two positions: PPS (Front Hemisphere or Encounter) and ZPS (Rear Hemisphere or Pursuit). It’s not an on/off switch. OKTL would be “off”.

 

In STT, this switch toggles whether the fuzing settings provided to R-27s are for forward or rear hemisphere target engagements. Otherwise, this switch functions to enable or disable СНП. (The "СНП" label is not indicating the name of the switch, but indicating that the up position activates СНП.)

[Ironhand]

In STT, this switch toggles whether the fuzing settings provided to R-27s are for forward or rear hemisphere target engagements. Otherwise, this switch functions to enable or disable СНП. (The "СНП" label is not indicating the name of the switch, but indicating that the up position activates СНП.)

Ahhh... my apologies.

[Seaeagle]

You are correct!

 

Good to know that this is your interpretation as well :) .

 

Why do you say that? That's not my understanding.

 

Simply because I read someone else claiming that . But I am not confident about that either - hence my "apparently" :) .

 

It could be down to misinterpreting the function of the "SNP/PPS - ZPS" switch - i.e. as meaning to set SNP to operate in either "V"(using HPRF for forward hemisphere) mode or "D" (using MPRF for rear hemisphere) mode - i.e. "PPS" and "ZPS" respectively.

[Seaeagle]

You think you are misinterpreting that switch. The СНП switch has two positions: PPS (Front Hemisphere or Encounter) and ZPS (Rear Hemisphere or Pursuit). It’s not an on/off switch. OKTL would be “off”.

 

That would be the very misinterpretation that I mentioned above :) .

 

According to the description of the switch on this page(lecture on the SUV-29): https://studfile.net/preview/5383872/page:6/

 

....(scroll down to bottom of the page) it says:

 

"СНП/ППС - ЗПС...ручний вибір режиму РППК: ВЧП з СНП або СЧП"

 

That translates to something like: СНП/ППС - ЗПС....manual selection of RPPK mode: HPRF with SNP or MPRF. Which would mean that with the switch in the up position(SNP/PPS), the SNP sub-mode is activated, while it is deactivated with the switch in the down position(ZPS).

[Ironhand]

That would be the very misinterpretation that I mentioned above :) .

 

According to the description of the switch on this page(lecture on the SUV-29): https://studfile.net/preview/5383872/page:6/

 

....(scroll down to bottom of the page) it says:

 

"СНП/ППС - ЗПС...ручний вибір режиму РППК: ВЧП з СНП або СЧП"

 

That translates to something like: СНП/ППС - ЗПС....manual selection of RPPK mode: HPRF with SNP or MPRF. Which would mean that with the switch in the up position(SNP/PPS), the SNP sub-mode is activated, while it is deactivated with the switch in the down position(ZPS).

"Manual selection РППК mode: High PRF with СНП/ППС or medium PRF." And what does the abbreviation: РППК ::stand for? What are the words it represents? Just curious because it's so close to РЛПК which is the radar complex itself that I'm wondering if it's a typo. The only place I've found "РППК" so far is in that document and only in that one place. Admittedly, I haven't done an exhaustive search.

Edited June 6, 2020 by Ironhand

[Seaeagle]

"Manual selection РППК mode: High PRF with СНП/ППС or medium PRF."

 

Yes thats what I wrote(HPRF = High PRF), but not "with СНП/ППС" - note that the "ППС"-bit is displaced in the text.....it should be underneath the first "СНП" ;) .

 

And what does the abbreviation: РППК ::stand for? What are the words it represents? Just curious because it's so close to РЛПК which is the radar complex itself that I'm wondering if it's a typo. The only place I've found "РППК" so far is in that document and only in that one place. Admittedly, I haven't done an exhaustive search.

 

I don't know mate - it could be a typo as you suggest or it could refer to something else. The whole document is jam-packed with all sorts of Russian abbreviations, that I don't know the meaning of.....I only picked up on the "ВЧП" and "СЧП" ones as being HPRF and MPRF respectively, because the AVT mode was described as having "automatic alternation" between the two.

[BlackPixxel]

I think the RPPK should be RLPK, which is simply the radar complex. Russian L and P look somewhat similar.

[N22YF]

That translates to something like: СНП/ППС - ЗПС....manual selection of RPPK mode: HPRF with SNP or MPRF. Which would mean that with the switch in the up position(SNP/PPS), the SNP sub-mode is activated, while it is deactivated with the switch in the down position(ZPS).

 

Yes I'm also guessing it's a typo and they meant RLPK. The RPPK abbreviation doesn't appear anywhere else there. (That does suggest that that switch controls PRF, though, which is not what I've read elsewhere - but if that's true, I don't understand how that control would interact with the radar mode control which also sets PRF.)

 

According to this page (scroll to the RPLK-29 [another typo!] section):

Track-while-flyby [sNP] submode is not available in AVT mode. AVT mode provides the same functionality automatically.

 

Track-While-Flyby submode can be set in Encounter or Pursuit modes only.

 

which implies auto PRF is available only with SNP! Also, this extensive and aptly-titled article "Everything You Need to Know about the MiG-29 Fulcrum" says, in its description of the various radar modes:

The Automatic "AUTO" (HKC-FDN) Mode utilizes an intermittent mixture of "Hi and Medium PRF" for the optimal incorporation of the Track-While Scan (TWS) capability of the Radar.

However in the same paragraph, it goes on to say:

In order to initiate the Track-While-Scan function, the second toggle switch along the bottom of the Radar panel, the "Radar Missile Fuzing and TWS" (GGC-PGC) switch, must be in the upper "Forward Hemisphere Position" most position.

which implies that AUTO (АВТ) mode can be used with or without TWS (СНП), depending on this switch position. :confused:

Edited June 6, 2020 by N22YF

[Seaeagle]

Yes I'm also guessing it's a typo and they meant RLPK. The RPPK abbreviation doesn't appear anywhere else there.

 

I am not so sure about that - if it should actually be; "manual setting of RLPK mode", then whats the logic in that?.....I mean thats exactly what the control knob is doing("V", "D", "AVT", etc). IMO would make more sense if the abbreviation refers to manual setting of radar sub-modes. But I don't know :) .

 

(That does suggest that that switch controls PRF, though, which is not what I've read elsewhere - but if that's true, I don't understand how that control would interact with the radar mode control which also sets PRF.)

 

Maybe it means that with the switch in the up position, SNP mode(with HPRF) is included into an automatic sub-mode transition(search, track, lock) - otherwise manual with only STT(using MPRF).

 

According to this page (scroll to the RPLK-29 [another typo!] section):

Track-while-flyby [sNP] submode is not available in AVT mode. AVT mode provides the same functionality automatically.

 

Track-While-Flyby submode can be set in Encounter or Pursuit modes only.

 

That was the very "claim by someone else" that I was referring to :)

 

which implies auto PRF is available only with SNP!

 

Well it is in "V"(HPRF only) and "D"(MPRF only). They each have advantages and disadvantages depending on the situation and when this changes, you need to switch between them accordingly. "AVT" is sort of the two combined into one mode with automatic transition, which eases the workload for the operator, but comes with less "peak performance" than either of the two dedicated modes.

 

But I don't know what he means by "AVT provides the same functionality[as SNP] automatically" - in terms of auto PRF perhaps, but there is a lot more to SNP(threat assessment/prioritisation).

 

Also, this extensive and aptly-titled article "Everything You Need to Know about the MiG-29 Fulcrum" says, in its description of the various radar modes:

 

However in the same paragraph, it goes on to say:

 

which implies that AUTO (АВТ) mode can be used with or without TWS (СНП), depending on this switch position. :confused:

 

I would disregard that source if I was you :D . I read the rest of the page and...LOL.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Seaeagle

[N22YF]

I am not so sure about that - if it should actually be; "manual setting of RLPK mode", then whats the logic in that?.....I mean thats exactly what the control knob is doing("V", "D", "AVT", etc). IMO would make more sense if the abbreviation refers to manual setting of radar sub-modes. But I don't know :) .

That's true! But it's also odd that "RPPK" doesn't appear anywhere else in that whole document. And what would RPPK be? :confused:

 

Maybe it means that with the switch in the up position, SNP mode(with HPRF) is included into an automatic sub-mode transition(search, track, lock) - otherwise manual with only STT(using MPRF).

But why would the automatic/manual lock option be tied to PRF? :confused:

 

But I don't know what he means by "AVT provides the same functionality[as SNP] automatically" - in terms of auto PRF perhaps, but there is a lot more to SNP(threat assessment/prioritisation).

But auto PRF is not a standard function of SNP, right?

 

I would disregard that source if I was you :D . I read the rest of the page and...LOL.

Ah! Good to have another pair of eyes vetting sources, thanks! What did you see in the rest of the page that leads you to discount it? I've only read bits of pieces of it.

[Tarres]

One question.

I think that the "radar scale" is tied to the radar mode selected.

If this is correct, and assuming that FC3 are "easy to use", wouldn´t be better to have fixed range, and less controls to assign?

 

I think that the fixed values are, in km:

150 for encounter

100 for auto/TWS

50 for pursuit

25 for STT

10 for CC modes

5 for AA Gun

[BlackPixxel]

In STT it is not fixed, it propably works as it does in DCS. (But there it selects the scale automatically, player controll does not affect it anyway)

 

In the obervation modes it appears to be fixed.

[Seaeagle]

One question.

I think that the "radar scale" is tied to the radar mode selected.

 

Yes thats correct.

 

If this is correct, and assuming that FC3 are "easy to use", wouldn´t be better to have fixed range, and less controls to assign?

 

Not sure I understand - the "radar scale" as you call it, only sets the maximum range displayed on the "scope" for the particular radar mode.

 

I think that the fixed values are, in km:

150 for encounter

100 for auto/TWS

50 for pursuit

25 for STT

10 for CC modes

5 for AA Gun

 

Yes those are correct, but I am not sure about the gun modes though and, like BlackPixxel, I don't think there is a particular range scale for STT - when the radar can transition to STT depends on various factors(including target RCS I guess) and when in SNP, it won't make the automatic transition until the target is within missile launch range.