reported AI Radar Performance

[MBot]

There continue to be serious issues with AI radar detection ranges of some aircraft.

 

The following test was conducted with a selection of various AI aircraft to illustrate some of the extreme discrepancies.

 

All test aircraft fly at 4000 m AGL and are approached head-on by a target A-10 at an altitude of 100 m (look-down) or 8000 m (look-up). The distance from the target at which the test aircraft accelerate to engage the target represents when it has detected it.

 

Detection range look-down:

MiG-19: 160 km (excessive range, radar not look-down capable)

MiG-21: 60 km (excessive range, radar not look-down capable)

MiG-23: 75 km

MiG-25: 280 km (excessive range, radar not look-down capable)

MiG-29: 60 km

F-5E-3: 270 km (excessive range, radar not look-down capable)

 

 

Detection range look-up:

MiG-19: 350 km (excessive range)

MiG-21: 100 km (excessive range)

MiG-23: 120 km

MiG-25: 500+ km (excessive range)

MiG-29: 75 km

F-5E-3: 460 km (excessive range)

 

 

From this selection, only the MiG-23 and MiG-29 seem reasonable. Feel free to make additional tests of other AI types.

 

Here is an old post on this in 2.0 Alpha bugs section. Since this has not been acknowledged so far I move this to the 2.5 bugs section.

AI_DetectionTest.miz

[Exorcet]

You can test this just by having your wingmen turn on their radar as well. Wingmen F-5 will see fighters at 40-50 miles. Wingmen F-15 will see fighters at 200 or more miles when the radar screen is physically limited to 160.

[Grimes]

Well the interesting thing is I got different results on the tester build for the look down test for everything bu the Mig-25.

 

Mig-25: 280km

F-5: ~85km

everything else: 55km

 

Will look into it more.

[MBot]

Curious. Is this possible hardware dependent?

[Tippis]

Curious. Is this possible hardware dependent?

There have indications before that player radar performance depends on display resolution, and while that part is still just implied from developer statements, maybe that holds true for AI as well? Try increasing or lowering it to extreme values (and turn everything else off to maintain frame rate) and see if it makes any difference.

Edited June 30, 2019 by Tippis

[Grimes]

Behavior is also interesting regarding weapons.

 

If every aircraft has missiles then they will all press at the ~270 distance to target. If guns only then only the F-5 will press at that range.

 

I also added a simple script that returns isTargetDetected(), checking each detection type, and listing which is detecting the target. For some reason it is returning both visual and radar detection at that extreme range.

 

At any rate I made a bug report on this.

[Silvern]

Interestingly, older AI planes from LOMAC era are modelled more reasonably.

 

F-4E has no look down radar modelled for example. Makes it a more interesting AI opponent compared to god-like MiG-21 radar.

[S D]

This is the kind of stuff that needs sorting before adding more content. We take it on faith that most of this stuff is working, but those of us who have been around long enough to see through the trickery and eye candy see the truth. There is so much broken under the hood, i'm not even sure ED know what functions correctly in their game anymore.

[dorianR666]

well thats disappointing.

i kept wondering why old migs without look-down-shoot-down capability keep engaging me from far away.

[Nealius]

If the official stance is that DCS is a "single-player focus" sim, then why are the AI this terrible?

[Silvern]

If the official stance is that DCS is a "single-player focus" sim, then why are the AI this terrible?

 

+1

 

It would be really nice if AI finally saw some improvement after all these years.

[Fynek]

I would really like to see major improvemens to the AI too as a priority. The single player experience is the core of the sim and the AI quality should be brought to a higher standard.

 

Their detection range should be seriously looked at (as well as their use of the laws of physics) because if one is being honest, that is the main weakness of DCS which is a fantastic simulation but negatively affected by the state of its AI.

[Pikey]

And;

- The length of time they go into "roller coaster avoidance mode", sometimes 5 minutes in a random direction

 

 

-No reaction to spikes

 

 

-No reaction to RWR nails - that's important since radar off gives no advantage they will find you via "Radio".

 

 

-Unlimited chaff and flares

 

 

- The ROE green command that makes them go after anything despite their current orders being restricted to X type target (tell a su34 to sead in 10nm of Kobuleti and it will ignore the AD there and travel 150nm across the sea to the stennis.)

 

- The recent increase in CFIT when avoiding missiles has severely increased, over flat sea

 

- The apparent "Datalink like unerring detection" that seems to have been in the game for years.

- Lack of imagination in the vertical, along with physical super powers enabling forever-loops.

 

- Head on 9-P shots Mig21 and F-5 have no issue in head to head passes with rear aspect heaters.

 

 

 

- Sixth sense ability to know when shot at by IR missiles

 

- Generally no visibility in the dark even with a radar

 

- Very poor BVR gameplay, they never crank, always pure pursuit and intercept with no offset.

- Inability to react to anything after RTB initiated, you can pull along side them and fly in formation.

 

 

It's pretty bad, I'd like to stick to MP, but I need to practice offline occasionally.

Edited July 27, 2019 by Pikey

[MBot]

ED, any news on this? This was reported 2 years ago (in fact, MiG-21/F-5 AI look-down almost 3 years ago)!

[Grimes]

They actually updated it the other day and I just now got around to testing it. I modified the script a little to display the distance in KM when each detection type detects the target. Its 2d range, not slant btw. The screenshot is the results.

 

Results are about the same from what I recall. Test build seems to be more in line with what one would expect aside for some of the "look down" and "look up" radar capabilities of the AI. Meanwhile release numbers are still whack.

 

Still don't have a good answer for why optical and radar happen at the same time when none of those aircraft have a TGP on them.

 

Will try to find out why this hasn't been merged.

[S D]

Bumpy... +1

[MBot]

Any news on this?

[Saigon]

I would really like to see major improvemens to the AI too as a priority. The single player experience is the core of the sim and the AI quality should be brought to a higher standard.

 

+1:thumbup:

[MBot]

Meanwhile, detection ranges got shorter. They are still wrong though:

 

Detection range look-down against A-10 in the latest beta:

MiG-19: 60 km

MiG-21: 60 km

MiG-23: 60 km

MiG-25: 60 km

MiG-29: 80 km

F-5E-3: 80 km

 

Again, this does not take into account missing look-down capabilities for aircraft with pulse radars and is still excessive for older aircraft even for a co-altitude situation. The MiG-21bis radar display doesn't even go beyond 30 km.

 

Strangely the AI F-4E is correctly not look-down capable. It won't detect and engage aircraft below it unless they are within visual range. So the capability clearly exists in DCS.

[MBot]

Maximum radar range of MiG-23MLD:

 

https://books.google.ch/books?id=ff-zDgAAQBAJ&lpg=PT286&ots=5BEXUAi6Nx&dq=sapfir-23%20range&pg=PT287#v=onepage&q=sapfir-23%20range&f=false

 

 

 

This is a really annoying and extremely long standing problem. I am trying to make missions for the Viggen where flying low serves to hide you approach but all Russian fighters just pick you up from afar regardless of you altitude.

[Laud]

Just to give this a bump:

 

 

When training BVR lately against two Su-27, starting at about 140 nm distance, we splitted:

 

 

 

My wingie remained high (35 k ft. radar on) and I went low and on a pincer move (below 300 ft AGL, radar off).

 

 

The Flankers had no AWACS/GCI. Nonetheless one of them instantly instantly changed course to come at me head-on. Again: 140 nm distance 30k ft. altitude difference, no AWACS no GCI no nothing.

 

 

Next thing: TWS long-range AIM-120C shot - They instantly start chaffing/flaring. They souldn't even know about the missile launches...

 

 

No Tracks but TacView-Files if wanted.

[dundun92]

The AI knows whenever you shoot a missile at it, and their radars vastly over preform.

[BIGNEWY]

The AI knows whenever you shoot a missile at it, and their radars vastly over preform.

 

AI reaction to a missile has nothing to do with RADAR, AI will react to any missile shot inside 10nm or half the missiles range.

 

Thanks

[Laud]

Well, the Rmax shots from 30k+ ft. are well further out than 10 nm. More like 30-35 nm.

[Sandman1330]

AI reaction to a missile has nothing to do with RADAR, AI will react to any missile shot inside 10nm or half the missiles range.

 

Thanks

 

Question out of curiosity: Is it half of the missile's maximum range, or is it half of the distance the missile is actually fired at?

 

I only ask because, for example, firing a phoenix at 35NM could theoretically be considered at half the range already - thereby leading the AI to react instantly.

 

I suspect it's half the range the missile is fired at, as I've not observed myself AI reacting to long range Phoenix or AMRAAM shots until the missile goes active.