Spirally Flight path Vikhr (Vikhr Attack Video)

[Anonymous]

Hi LOMAC- Enthusiasts!

 

Why the Vikhr-Missiles has a spirally flight path to the target? Never seen this on other Missiles. In Comanche vs. Hokum they have an direkt flight path...

 

Thanks for answer the question and sorry for my bad Englisch.

[SAM-Smasher]

Its the real deal physics and flight intelligance of the vikhr, Commanche vs Hokum did not model this, but the good people at ED have kindly put this into LOMAC, which is REALLY impressive stuff!!! :)

[Joe Kurr]

AFAIK it's because the missiles only have control surfaces in one plain,

so in order to steer in other directions, they rotate.

[SAM-Smasher]

Yep you hit the nail on the head there I think Joe :wink:

[BearF_CO_159th]

Not sure on this (will need to do some research) but it may also be because of the guidance system the Vikhr uses.

 

The flight path is similar to the SA-7 in its spiralling. The SA-7 spirals due to the seeker head using a rotating disk with a 'cake slice' segment missing. As this disk rotates the IR sig of the target appears through the missing 'slice'. The seeker head then steers the missile towards it. As the missile is constantly correcting itself it spirals to the target.

 

Is the Vikhr SACLOS (like the TOW) or laser (like the HELLFIRE)?

[SAM-Smasher]

The Vikhr as far as I know is a LASER weapon, would I be right in saying the Vikhr can be tracked to a target mid flight?

[IKG200 Swierczek]

Wikhr is radio-guided in the first phase of flight, then it is guided IN the guiding laser beam - it is not aiming laser light reflected from the target as majority of laser guided missiles (as Kh29L for example).

 

Laser-guided are versions 9M127, 9M227, 9M127F, 9M127G, 9M227G1.

9M227M1, 9M227F, 9M227G2 are infra-red guided.

 

 

"it's because the missiles only have control surfaces in one plain,

so in order to steer in other directions" => are you sure Joe Kurr? On photos and drawing available the controls seems to be "normal" - as in each other missile

 

Maybe the answer for the question is, that if the missile has to stay in the guiding laser beam, which is constantly changing its position (as it is linking target and aircraft, which is moving), the missile just try to adjust its flight path to stay in the beam ....

 

I don't know ... just guessing :D

[GGTharos]

It only has one-axis control, and that's why it spirals.

 

Beamriders don't spiral because they're riding a beam ... they fly straight in it. The Vikhr is a beam-rider. It spirals due to the control surface setup ;)

[IKG200 Swierczek]

I agree BBTharos they fly straight to the target inside the beam... there is only one condition... the carrier emiting laser beam has to be in relative stillnes in relation to the target - that means it could be chopper in the hover or aircraft diving straight onto the target - then the laser beam is not moving in space.

But what if the carrier/emiter is constantly moving in relation to the target...? then the position of the beam in space is contantly changing. If the missile "wants" to stay inside, it should follow the beam

 

This is what common sense is telling

[GGTharos]

I agree BBTharos they fly straight to the target inside the beam... there is only one condition... the carrier emiting laser beam has to be in relative stillnes in relation to the target - that means it could be chopper in the hover or aircraft diving straight onto the target - then the laser beam is not moving in space.

But what if the carrier/emiter is constantly moving in relation to the target...? then the position of the beam in space is contantly changing. If the missile "wants" to stay inside, it should follow the beam

 

This is what common sense is telling

 

And it does. THe AIM-7 for example is a beam-rider until terminal guidance.

[Chizh]

Vikhr missile not have radio guidance only a laser-beam.

 

Vikhr missile not have a head seeker instead it have a tail sensors which locate a laser beam (actually grid) from laser designator “Prichal” integrated into “Shkval” system.

Vikhr have a one axis control system with only two constrained control surfaces (other two fixed).

Therefore missile must rotate for beam guidance.

[DayGlow]

I agree BBTharos they fly straight to the target inside the beam... there is only one condition... the carrier emiting laser beam has to be in relative stillnes in relation to the target - that means it could be chopper in the hover or aircraft diving straight onto the target - then the laser beam is not moving in space.

But what if the carrier/emiter is constantly moving in relation to the target...? then the position of the beam in space is contantly changing. If the missile "wants" to stay inside, it should follow the beam

 

This is what common sense is telling

 

And it does. THe AIM-7 for example is a beam-rider until terminal guidance.

 

An early version of the AIM-7 was a beam rider, but they are all SARH.

________

Yamaha YSR50

Edited January 22, 2011 by DayGlow

[GGTharos]

I agree BBTharos they fly straight to the target inside the beam... there is only one condition... the carrier emiting laser beam has to be in relative stillnes in relation to the target - that means it could be chopper in the hover or aircraft diving straight onto the target - then the laser beam is not moving in space.

But what if the carrier/emiter is constantly moving in relation to the target...? then the position of the beam in space is contantly changing. If the missile "wants" to stay inside, it should follow the beam

 

This is what common sense is telling

 

And it does. THe AIM-7 for example is a beam-rider until terminal guidance.

 

An early version of the AIM-7 was a beam rider, but they are all SARH.

 

That's what I said (I think) ... it rides the beam 'till terminal guidance takes over :)

[IKG200 Swierczek]

Thanks Chizh!

 

That solves the problem :D

BTW its very interesting that only one axis is controlled without affecting accuracy

 

Just checked it in LOMAC 1.02. Wikhr flies straight ahead to the target. I suppose this is due to simplificated modelling of this missile. Am I right?

 

Concerning Wikhr guidance - the information about it was in a book about russian rocket/missile weaponry issued in Poland in 2000. That is the source of the mistake among polish users I think :D

[ThirdELTPoznan]

Thanks Chizh!

 

That solves the problem :D

BTW its very interesting that only one axis is controlled without affecting accuracy

 

Just checked it in LOMAC 1.02. Wikhr flies straight ahead to the target. I suppose this is due to simplificated modelling of this missile. Am I right?

 

Concerning Wikhr guidance - the information about it was in a book about russian rocket/missile weaponry issued in Poland in 2000. That is the source of the mistake among polish users I think :D

 

Vikhir missiles (those mounted on Su-25T) come from older types of AT missiles. AT-16 comes from AT-9 which was modernisation of AT-6 missile which in fact had both radio and laser guidance. Check this topic: http://forum.lockon.ru/viewtopic.php?t=2179

[Chizh]

Just checked it in LOMAC 1.02. Wikhr flies straight ahead to the target. I suppose this is due to simplificated modelling of this missile. Am I right?

Yes. Some things, for example a flight trajectory of anti-tank missiles have been simplified. Now we have decided to simulate a real trajectory of this missile.

By the way many other things the Soviet anti-tank one-axis missiles “Phagot”, “Konkurs”, “Kornet”, “Metis”, etc, have also flight trajectory.

 

This is a anti-tank “Metis” missile with two control surfaces (one-axis) only.

[Avimimus]

"Laser-guided are versions 9M127, 9M227, 9M127F, 9M127G, 9M227G1.

9M227M1, 9M227F, 9M227G2 are infra-red guided. "

 

Where did you get these versions? I am not sure it is accurate.

There are only two versions of the Vikhr I know about the 9A1472 (9m127?) and its improved M version. There may also be a thermobaric warhead but don't count on it.

 

Western authorities have believed that every missile since the 9M114 (At-6 Spiral) has semi-active laser homing. They are wrong, no known Russian ant-tank missile employs this guidance.

 

The 9A1472 is a laser beam rider and completely different from the 9M114/120 Shturm/Ataka complex (AT-6/AT-9).

 

May books in the west either say that the 9A1472 is unguided or more often they lump it in with the 9M114 and 9M120 and call the whole system Vikhr and say it has semi-active laser beam riding. This is a product of Cold War.

 

The spiral motion may allow the missile to do a "blind-mans dance" toward the center of the laser beam -allowing it to keep up with the changed position of a moving platform.

[Yo-Yo]

"

 

The spiral motion may allow the missile to do a "blind-mans dance" toward the center of the laser beam -allowing it to keep up with the changed position of a moving platform.

 

No, it is only a side effect of the one-channel steering... besides it's not a "laser beam" - it must be a modulated laser raster because there's no way for the missile to learn it's relative position with its back sensors usuing a single beam.

[Avimimus]

"

 

The spiral motion may allow the missile to do a "blind-mans dance" toward the center of the laser beam -allowing it to keep up with the changed position of a moving platform.

 

No, it is only a side effect of the one-channel steering... besides it's not a "laser beam" - it must be a modulated laser raster because there's no way for the missile to learn it's relative position with its back sensors usuing a single beam.

 

Wow! It sounds like you know something about this!!

Could you answer a couple of questions?

What is the service designation of the Vikhr, how does it differ from the -M version?

[Yo-Yo]

"

 

The spiral motion may allow the missile to do a "blind-mans dance" toward the center of the laser beam -allowing it to keep up with the changed position of a moving platform.

 

No, it is only a side effect of the one-channel steering... besides it's not a "laser beam" - it must be a modulated laser raster because there's no way for the missile to learn it's relative position with its back sensors usuing a single beam.

 

Wow! It sounds like you know something about this!!

Could you answer a couple of questions?

What is the service designation of the Vikhr, how does it differ from the -M version?

 

Sounds a little bit strange...but I never had an interest in those particular things... my work - to solve problems in general :)

[Tranquil]

The unusual flight regieme may also help defeat tactical anti-missile systems and active protection systems. Supersonic velocitys also decrease the chance of interception.

 

Also i believe the guidance system may reduce the effects of battlefield obscurants, like smoke, dust etc. As the missile is guided from the rear, rather than homing on a laser spot. I would suspect laser warning systems would have trouble detecting the guidance laser.

 

Assuming this is all correct, i think this could be the 'best' anti-tank missile currently in production.

[GGTharos]

Why would they have any trouble detecting the laser? Those things are pretty bright any way you cut it, there's no hiding it from the target. Obscurants will also work; their purpose isn't to deflect or diffuse the laser as much as it is to confuse the device that is pointing the laser at the target and cause it to lose lock, be that a human or computer that's doing the guiding.

 

Anti-missile weapons aren't an issue; tanks don't use'em AFAIK, and if they did, they're actually frighteningly effective as of ten years ago.

[Yo-Yo]

Why would they have any trouble detecting the laser? Those things are pretty bright any way you cut it, there's no hiding it from the target. Obscurants will also work; their purpose isn't to deflect or diffuse the laser as much as it is to confuse the device that is pointing the laser at the target and cause it to lose lock, be that a human or computer that's doing the guiding.

 

Anti-missile weapons aren't an issue; tanks don't use'em AFAIK, and if they did, they're actually frighteningly effective as of ten years ago.

 

Russian tanks and armoured vehicles do use (or better to say CAN USE) active anti-missile and anti-shell system "Arena" but they are short-range systems so the spiral flight-path ain't effective.

The spiral path as I wrote has no use - the main feature is reducing caliber, weight and required energy for control-surface actuator (one instead two).

The back-sensor guiding is more preferrable than reflected spot because of less laser power required. Also I think that onboard pointing device is more capable to extrapolate or predict target position than self-guidance system if obscurants are present (for a certain time of course).

[GGTharos]

Well, like I said, there are pros/cons to either method ... with painting you have problems like 'flashilighting' etc ...

 

But anyway ... describe Arena, I neevr heard of it :D

[Iron Legionnaire]

http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/EQP/arena.html

 

Basically, it's a multi-function millimeter-band radar linked to a countermeasure system that fires small grenades at any ATGMs on an intercept course w/ the tank. Perhaps it would be more accurate to call the countermeasures "claymores," considering they unleash shrapnel in a directed blast, rather than simply all over the place.

 

Edit: Another link w/ various active and passive countermeasure systems, including the predecessors of Arena.

 

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/3aps98.pdf