Full cockpit + VR?

[TripRodriguez]

Yeah I have vive so steam vr

was on and dcs open. Start blender and it shuts down dcs

Vice versa open blender then start dcs . Blender shuts down

 

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

 

That sucks. My first priority is the Leap Motion experiments, but I do want to check out the blender thing at some point.

[agathorn]

Interesting thread, I've been thinking through the same things myself. I have always planned on building a full close to 100% accurate Hornet pit, but after buying a rift S a couple of weeks ago, I just can't give up on VR

 

The ultimate solution is something along the lines of blender, where you can mark out/green screen the edge of your cockpit and just have the sim rendering the outside view.

 

However I am pretty certain that as long as the cockpit is close to 1:1 that there will be no problem with reaching out and flipping the correct switch. Don't forget that the switches/knobs all have different tops on them for a reason. I've done some practice with a few practice panels and was able to get the correct switch most of the time. The hard bit is getting the panel in the correct 3d position, as I don't have my pit shell yet.

 

What a great time to be alive!

 

Yeah that's why I think it would be great to be able to get the game's cockpit models extracted and into a cad program or at least a normal 3d modeler as a waystation. If we can get the actual game models then we can build a 1:1 cockpit based on them or at least real close.

[molevitch]

My method

 

Hi fellas, hi Trip,

 

This is the principle that I have been working to as well. I am building a Mi24 pit for the module which is in development. I have some real components and some adapted components, and have recently been using some great photo reference to build actual 1:1 scale panels. Muscle memory in VR is pretty solid after a while, and one soon knows where stuff is. Of course, I am currently flying Mi-8 and other choppers, but sitting in an unfinished Mi-24 pit!

 

I have seen that a fellow pilot worked out how to extract the DCS model into Blender, using an Mi-8, so it can be done. I will ask how....

 

But I have been enlarging to full size from photos in Photoshop, using "Find Edges" filter, and printing out in black and white linework on multiple A3 sheets and then sticking them all together. I also got a Mi-24 original manual download which has some instrument layout schematics. I have a few authentic panels which I can use as scale references to resize the photos. Then paste all that onto old corrugated card boxes, cut up with box-cutters, and stick it all together with parcel tape to make a test cockpit enclosure. Worked really well, and I was then able to use those print-offs to create correct scale aluminium panels.

 

Still a long way to go, but it is a really effective method.

 

Mole

 

Yeah that's why I think it would be great to be able to get the game's cockpit models extracted and into a cad program or at least a normal 3d modeler as a waystation. If we can get the actual game models then we can build a 1:1 cockpit based on them or at least real close.

[agathorn]

Hi fellas, hi Trip,

 

This is the principle that I have been working to as well. I am building a Mi24 pit for the module which is in development. I have some real components and some adapted components, and have recently been using some great photo reference to build actual 1:1 scale panels. Muscle memory in VR is pretty solid after a while, and one soon knows where stuff is. Of course, I am currently flying Mi-8 and other choppers, but sitting in an unfinished Mi-24 pit!

 

I have seen that a fellow pilot worked out how to extract the DCS model into Blender, using an Mi-8, so it can be done. I will ask how....

 

But I have been enlarging to full size from photos in Photoshop, using "Find Edges" filter, and printing out in black and white linework on multiple A3 sheets and then sticking them all together. I also got a Mi-24 original manual download which has some instrument layout schematics. I have a few authentic panels which I can use as scale references to resize the photos. Then paste all that onto old corrugated card boxes, cut up with box-cutters, and stick it all together with parcel tape to make a test cockpit enclosure. Worked really well, and I was then able to use those print-offs to create correct scale aluminium panels.

 

Still a long way to go, but it is a really effective method.

 

Mole

 

Only problem with using real world reference is I'm betting that DCS isn't exactly right, and at the end of the day what really matters is your cockpit matching the position of objects in the game, regardless of accuracy to the real thing or not.

[TripRodriguez]

Only problem with using real world reference is I'm betting that DCS isn't exactly right, and at the end of the day what really matters is your cockpit matching the position of objects in the game, regardless of accuracy to the real thing or not.

 

I can confirm that this has been the case in the one or two experiments I performed. If you want the real thing to be in exactly the same place as it is in DCS you need to build the DCS pit not the real one.

 

Keep in mind though, I only tested a little bit so this very well not apply to all modules. I suspect it does though.

 

My solution is building the blank panels, putting them in place, and then using the VR hand controllers to check position of each switch and knob etc. Time consuming but it works.

 

My Huey main panel (already built but not yet wired) I was able to obtain an image of the full panel, then use that and verify with the hand controller and it seems to have worked out pretty well.

[Duckling]

Hi Trip. Same quiz here. Been looking for a AR option to show the inside of a pit while render the Sim view outside of the pit (or rather an option to to pass through a secondary videosource into flightsim view. MS Flashlight is the closest answer that I found so far https://www.google.se/amp/s/uploadvr.com/microsoft-mixed-reality-flashlight/amp/

 

Image quality and if a 3D view is possible is still unknown. A stationary cam/cams with Flashlight might be a way forward but somehow the area shown must be tweaked. ZED cam and AR application looks promising but the environment is way above my skill level ;-/

Edited June 16, 2019 by Duckling

[Blue73]

Hi, I've been flying for many months with my side panels in vr. Muscle memory does work, exact placement isn't necessary. I'll know soon enough if the UFC and DDIs work as well. I've tested one DDI and there were no issues. Immersion is enhanced when you can physically interact with the controls.

[agathorn]

Hi, I've been flying for many months with my side panels in vr. Muscle memory does work, exact placement isn't necessary. I'll know soon enough if the UFC and DDIs work as well. I've tested one DDI and there were no issues. Immersion is enhanced when you can physically interact with the controls.

 

Oh certainly and this is what I am doing for now, mainly as I don't have space for a 1:1 pit. But imagine how much more immersion you would have if they did match up 1:1 with the in game pit.

[Guppy]

For a month I was using my SimPit (below in my signature) and VR (Vive Pro). My experience was disappointing. My challenge was that VR is supposed to better immerse you into your environment. Flicking a switch that is not where it is supposed to be (or to your left vs. your right) really ruined it for me.

 

I think if you were to decide on one aircraft and build it out exactly where the switches are in game-VR you would have quite a wonderful experience. The challenge there would be obviously the limiting factor of being stuck to one aircraft.

 

I did manage to get my L/R DDI and AMPCD in roughly the same place as they are in game, but they aren't to the real size. So that can cause a bit of clunckiness but was much easier to get used to then toggles/buttons being in the wrong spot.

 

You can certainly learn and memorize where things are, but it breaks that immersion and feels a bit discombobulating.

 

I think the best solution for VR users is for better hand sensors that allow you to physically interact with a digital pit. Captogloves were on the right track, but everything I've read to date is that it's many years from being usable. Unless, of course, you're fine with flying one plane or building multiple pits.... or okay with feeling a bit discombobulated.

[jimiC]

My f18 does match in game position once I move seat up a smidge and fwd a click

I can look under the headset and back into the headset and the real world button positions correlate to the vr image positions

The only other thing I could want is to see my hands (not even use them to interact with ingame buttons ) but even without hand visualisation I can hit each button first grab almost seamlessly

 

I get max immersion from the f18 (calculated decision this module will be the most advanced module for at least the next 2 years ) and a good deal of double up with some of the other modules too

 

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

[TripRodriguez]

That's awesome. Being able to see my hands is what I'm basically after. I guess I'm not so coordinated, not a shock as I'm an Aspie. =D

 

Reaching for a switch right in front of me, then having to feel around a bit for it is an immersion killer for me. Still better than any other option, but annoying.

 

I will be testing Leap Motion soon, I fear the tracking will not be 1:1 with the real world but we will see.

[Shadow912]

Hi guys,

 

I fly only in VR and am building a 'pit'. I'm hoping muscle memory will work for me :pilotfly:

 

Check out my thread....

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=243783

[hansangb]

Man, I wish i had the room for something like that!

[TripRodriguez]

Hey guys, I got my Index yesterday and I'm quite pleased with it. The passthrough camera isn't working yet (apparently it is for some people) for me but looking at the options gave me a thought.

 

SteamVR has a mode (that I've never tested due to terrible OG Vive camera) for the "chaperone" system to fade in the real world via the passthrough camera(s) as you get close to them.

 

So I was thinking, what if you placed the boundary of your play area such that when you reached for the panels your hand got close enough to trigger the chaperone?

 

The biggest problem I can see here is that I believe there's a minimum size for your chaperone area, but there's got to be a way to bypass that restriction right?

 

With my Index it will even be stereoscopic! For hand detection I can use the Leap Motion controller emulation or a Vive Tracker on the back of each hand.

 

Another possibility is (again this is 100% theoretical at this point) enabling the "translucent pass-through" camera mode assuming it lets you continue gameplay, and attempting to set up the simulator so that that everything but the panels is black or possibly chroma keyed like that app someone linked so that when you look anywhere except where the panels are the translucent real world view won't be obscuring anything.

 

For me that's a bit more complicated (understatement) since my cockpit moves around quite a log LOL. It will be a lot easier for any aircraft that you don't look up through glass above your head... so basically helicopters.

 

Anyway, I'm planning to try out these options when the Index camera support gets turned on. I wish I'd known about this feature two days ago so I could have tested the theory with my OG Vive, but I'm not sure I feel like taking the time to break it back out and hook it all up just to do a quick test with a horribly low resolution mono camera....

 

I might try switching to the SteamVR Home Beta to see if I can get the cameras working on the Index but again for me that's a bit of a hassle because I have to deal with OpenVRInputEmulator motion compensation getting broken by going to the Beta and time is always in short supply around here.

[TripRodriguez]

I got the cameras working via full SteamVR reinstall. They are horrible, not much better than the OG Vive version. With a flashlight shining directly on my TM Warthog throttle it was a blurry mess, and there was latency when I turned my head.

 

Definitely no good.

 

I'm going to try to do a Leap Motion test in the next two days, but pretty sure that's going to be a no-go just because it won't be 1:1 positional tracking. I will post back and let you know though. I have a 1:1 matched to the game DCS Huey forward panel already built, so I'll use that for my tests.

 

I also am very upset to have recently discovered the Vive Trackers are far far less reliable tracking than the HMD and wands... =( Sucks that I spent $300 on the damned things a year ago.

Update on that: Supposedly this might be caused by the USB ports used for the dongles. I'll be testing with "clean power" USB ports and I'll report back.

Edited July 5, 2019 by TripRodriguez

[TripRodriguez]

I'm still chasing this. Tried playing with Reality Blender but it's definitely not good enough (because of the lack of depth perception) to improve my immersion.

 

Leap Motion still seems like the most likely option but the free driver for emulating controllers was a real headache. I haven't tried Driver4VR, tempted to buy it and see if I have better luck. Another MAJOR problem there though, I need to be able to "use hand controllers" without them moving switches! I don't know what ED were thinking making the hand controllers active without a click, and giving no option to disable that mode and require a trigger press.

 

Other than that, I'd be back to trackers. They have a ton of potential, but I'm concerned that due to my cockpit moving around the trackers will lose sight of the base stations all the time. Especially using the lower right panel in the Ka-50. Still though, most of the time when using the side panels it will be on the ground or while in level flight or a hover so I could probably manage to set up the base stations so that they have full coverage when the cockpit is sitting level at mid travel. Still likely to have issues because of the no-click controls though.

 

More experimentation required.

Edited July 5, 2019 by TripRodriguez

[Wmacky]

Great subject matter. Lets keep this going!

 

 

I'm somewhat new to modern flight sims, but decided to go all out on a TOTL flight setup for VR. ( Big VR enthusiast since the early 90's) I'm just finishing assembly, and recovering from a huge cash outlay, so I still have little experience, but I have given this entire matter a great deal of thought.

 

 

My interests vary from various military jets to helis, and even general aviation.

 

 

To enjoy a wider range of flight experiences, I feel it is necessary to keep the real cockpit somewhat generic, and rely on software generation for the various simulated cockpits / controls.

 

Therefore, Ive gone with a race sim style 8020 cockpit structure with added motion actuators. I felt what was important was to have an actual physical high end HOTAS and rudder pedals. A simulated HOTAS is a no go!

The center mounted stick, and side mounted throttle will be on movable mounts to better match in sim positioning for various simulated aircraft. Everything else will be simulated and operated virtually. This is the best combination of real / virtual for aircraft control.

 

 

But how? Like most, I feel the ultimate answer is quality hand tracking preferably with some kinda of tactile fingertip feedback. I'm not big on the glove idea, but rather envision a small Bluetooth cap that slips onto your index finger tip, containing a mini tactile device? I think we are just not there just yet. I'm going to try out Miles IR pointer as a temporary stand in while we wait for developments. I liked the idea of the built in headset cursor guidance as a stop gap, but have read it's a no go?

 

 

That's my solution for now. I just felt that a detailed pit setup for a particular aircraft was too restrictive, and too difficult to integrate 1:1 into the VR world.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Wmacky

[TripRodriguez]

Curtis, the developer of OVR Toolkit (on steam) told me he would write a little code to make SteamVR display the SteamVR gloves. He's pretty certain it will work but it's a side project and not his priority so I've been waiting a couple weeks.

 

I'm sure he'd be more likely to do it sooner if others came by and asked for it, so join his Discord and ask him about Trip's VR Gloves!

 

I think this will get you there. He's a super nice guy and OVR Toolkit is a must have IMO.

 

https://discordapp.com/invite/rGWjyCz

 

Also in case that doesn't work, google OVR Toolkit Discord. If you don't use Discord, you can try posting on the forums but he doesn't watch it as closely as Discord. https://steamcommunity.com/app/1068820/discussions/

 

Thanks!

[mrwell]

Full cockpit + VR?

 

Hi,

I’m building a real-size F16 pit. I also have an HTC Vive for some time.

There is something in my mind for some time ago. Nowadays it’s not difficult to find good quality fast USB cameras, even wide angle ones.

Why not putting two them together over our HMD to create an stereo camera? (3D printed mounted). Then we use an OVR program to put those camera feed into the VR game BUT being already treated for stereo vision. Now the integration thing, there already are programs to draw in VR in 3D. So why don’t we paint the border of our pit/desktop/HOTAS and tell the OVR program: “if inside this area then show 3D camera feed, else show VR game”. It will be then a real Mixed reality pit! Imagine that, you can see your pit in 3D, even your own hands, being able to touch every real button accurately thanks to the stereo vision! And also being able to look out of the pit into the beautiful blues sky and ground!

 

That is my dream that I let here for someone eager to win money and with the skills to program it. Here you are a client of your product (along with many more VR simulation enthusiasts)

 

Cheers

Edited August 24, 2019 by mrwell

[BlacleyCole]

Trip have you thought of building a universal pit with all theswitches and knobs for eveything but in a universal location ie the power switch in the same location for each aircraft that way you need to think power and your muscle memory says it’s here and thesamefor each switch you learn the position onceand not haveto think ok inthisacitis heresoletsputmyhandthere.

[TripRodriguez]

Trip have you thought of building a universal pit with all theswitches and knobs for eveything but in a universal location ie the power switch in the same location for each aircraft that way you need to think power and your muscle memory says it’s here and thesamefor each switch you learn the position onceand not haveto think ok inthisacitis heresoletsputmyhandthere.

 

That's a good way to go, but it's just not what I'm looking for. I'm trying to achieve the greatest possible immersion in VR. First is the Huey, later probably the P-51 and then maybe the F-14.

[TripRodriguez]

Hi,

I’m building a real-size F16 pit. I also have an HTC Vive for some time.

There is something in my mind for some time ago. Nowadays it’s not difficult to find good quality fast USB cameras, even wide angle ones.

Why not putting two them together over our HMD to create an stereo camera? (3D printed mounted). Then we use an OVR program to put those camera feed into the VR game BUT being already treated for stereo vision. Now the integration thing, there already are programs to draw in VR in 3D. So why don’t we paint the border of our pit/desktop/HOTAS and tell the OVR program: “if inside this area then show 3D camera feed, else show VR game”. It will be then a real Mixed reality pit! Imagine that, you can see your pit in 3D, even your own hands, being able to touch every real button accurately thanks to the stereo vision! And also being able to look out of the pit into the beautiful blues sky and ground!

 

That is my dream that I let here for someone eager to win money and with the skills to program it. Here you are a client of your product (along with many more VR simulation enthusiasts)

 

Cheers

 

This is what the guy who made "reality blender" was going for, but it had no support for stereoscopic cameras which killed it. Also, for this method to be practical you have to have all your instruments and such working. I'd be happy to do that though if we had a good way of doing this mixed reality pit that worked really well without killing frame rates.

[sk000tch]

Trip have you thought of building a universal pit with all theswitches and knobs for eveything but in a universal location ie the power switch in the same location for each aircraft that way you need to think power and your muscle memory says it’s here and thesamefor each switch you learn the position onceand not haveto think ok inthisacitis heresoletsputmyhandthere.

 

This is my plan as well, the idea being a common universal module, so to speak, utilizing 3 cougar MFDs in the f/a18 orientation, a 24 key programmable keypad in the middle of the top two to simulate UFCs, then two button boxes on either side of the lower of the lower with a TBD layout of 2 & 3-ways, rotaries and momentary/push buttons, for common functions like gear, radios, tailhook, antiskid, lights, engine controls, fuel mgmt, probe, jettison, etc. I have a small no-num pad keyboard and a 10" monitor I intend to have on a vesa arm when I need to back out to windows or other various tasks without having to get out of the pit.

 

It is definitely not the same level of "immersion," but what breaks immersion more than anything for me is frustratingly not remembering some random keybind and feeling around my keyboard. I admire the painstaking detail people here put into their pits but that's not me, I fly a lot IRL, I don't need the 1:1, I just want precise controls and the ability to quickly perform whatever function I am trying to do without taking the HMD off or feeling around for keys. My hope is that, as you say, muscle memory will kick in and I won't get confused by conflicting visual reference of what I'm seeing and where the actual switch is. I feel like well reasoned design is the key here, I like to fly a lot of modules so deciding on a layout that works for the Ka50, f18, a-10, etc, is easier said than done. There aren't THAT many things that need independent switches after the MFDs, UFC/Numpad and Hotas controls; but while it would be easy enough to come up with a common layout for Viper and Hornet, perhpas Hog, start throwing the ka-50, F-14, harrier, etc in there the overlap gets smaller and smaller.

[mrwell]

This is what the guy who made "reality blender" was going for, but it had no support for stereoscopic cameras which killed it. Also, for this method to be practical you have to have all your instruments and such working. I'd be happy to do that though if we had a good way of doing this mixed reality pit that worked really well without killing frame rates.

 

 

 

Hi, I talked to Reality Blender dev. He told that the API didn’t support to implement 3D image on the overlay but he’s investigating on the new API and maybe he has chances to achieve it!

Good luck to him

[METEOP]

I understand the dilemma...

 

But I think you guys are taking the wrong approach. If you think about it, event if you have a mixed reality device you would still need to see the 3d cockpit rendered in the game, or replace the virtual cockpit with a black hole? I think it would be kind of weird.

 

How about this:

 

If you could see your hands in the sim, move your hand so that you touch the panel in the game.

 

In the real world, mount a mdf board at this distance. Take small pieces of masking tape and locate the switches one my one so that they relate to the switches on the virtual cockpit.

 

Doing this, you don't need to see your physical cockpit, the visuals are purely in the virtual world and you don't need to mix in your physical pit.

 

You could even have multiple boards for different planes and change them.

 

Currently I am running on a headtracker with a large curved projector screen, when the technology is sufficiently mature I will be moving to VR (maybe 3-5 years from now) and this is probably what I'll be doing.