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Night vision on Gazelle L and minigun variants


Night vision on Gazelle L and minigun variants  

95 members have voted

  1. 1. Night vision on Gazelle L and minigun variants

    • Stick with realism. What’s not on the real thing should not be in the module.
      38
    • Make an exception. (Tell us why)
      57


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Now and again we notice there seems to be demand for night vision capabilities on the L and minigun variants of the Gazelle. We’ve explained that the real versions of these variants have never had the capability to equip these night vision devices. Our standpoint has always been to stick to realism. However, we are interested in what you as a community think of this standpoint. Without promising anything on this matter, we’d like to hear your opinion.

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Well is it a matter of doctrine or were they incapable of using them? if it's just a matter of strapping them to the pilots head and it was just never done in real life lets have it. If there's a reason why NVGs wouldn't work in them than leave them out.

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I have a slight preference for keeping it real.

 

However... regardless of the choice, I would recommend mentioning it in the manual. Putting something like: "NVGs are only available on the M version as per RL" or "NVGs were never available on the L/Minigun in RL, but are included as a 'what-if' scenario" would be useful. It helps us understand the reason/history, or avoid frustration trying to figure out if it should work or not.

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Well is it a matter of doctrine or were they incapable of using them? if it's just a matter of strapping them to the pilots head and it was just never done in real life lets have it. If there's a reason why NVGs wouldn't work in them than leave them out.

 

It has to do with the fact that the L and minigun variants were never equipped with night vision lighting in real life.

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IMHO, make an exception, for reason of gameplay and flexibility.

 

• NVGs are already in game for the M so little, if any additional dev work is required

• The Gazelle works best as team with the M supported by the L, mini-gun or Mistral

• The mini-gun was trialled over 7 days and 3 nights

• Players who want to keep it 'real' can simply not task the L or mini-gun variants, at night.

 

I've no issue with the 'Vivian' camera being 'day' limited in the L, mini-gun or Mistral variants if it's true to the 'Athos' camera ? and Polychop want to reflect the difference in camera capabilities.

 

However, pilot NVG's were clearly used during the mini-gun tests and are likely a valid modification regardless of any camera's NV capability (or lack of).


Edited by Ramsay
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It has to do with the fact that the L and minigun variants were never equipped with night vision lighting in real life.

 

In that case I'd say leave them out but thats a mild leave them out. I won't sharpen my pitchfork if they're put in.

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We have Harriers with 12 x GBU-12 (or even mixed in GBU-16's too) loadouts.

We have AJS37 Viggens with 4 x BK-90 loadouts.

I'm sure there are examples from other airframes too.

 

The threshold for "can't" vs "would" is already breached.

 

Night Vision lighting seems like more of a case of practicality (not needed enough to add it) than incompatible.

 

Id give it a soft yes but not the end of the world.


Edited by Sephyrius
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The idea of flying night missions and firing off rockets and machine guns really appeals to me. Please can we have an exception. Even an option in the special

options tab would be fair.

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Did you vote?
Unfortunately we on Tapatalk don't see the voting functionality in the forum, so we can't vote unless going to the web interface. If it's not clearly stated in OP it's impossible for us to know there is a real voting or not. Is it now?

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Unfortunately we on Tapatalk don't see the voting functionality in the forum, so we can't vote unless going to the web interface. If it's not clearly stated in OP it's impossible for us to know there is a real voting or not. Is it now?

Yes this has a real poll 13 for realistic 10 for NVGs

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Well is it a matter of doctrine or were they incapable of using them? if it's just a matter of strapping them to the pilots head and it was just never done in real life lets have it. If there's a reason why NVGs wouldn't work in them than leave them out.

 

NVG comaptible cockpit lighting is typically the big reason. Any idiot can strap them on, but you are either flying with all lights off so ypu cant look under them to check instruments, or you have them on and you are totally blinded and cant see shit ouside the pit. But you can see your instruments. You need actual NVG compatoble instrument lighting to both, and the right filters in the NOD.


Edited by Harlikwin

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You need actual NVG compatible instrument lighting to both, and the right filters in the NOD.

And what is your assessment of night firing of the Mini-gun equipped Gazelle by the French Army technical section.

 

https://www.facebook.com/LeGamStat/videos/281867828964985/?v=281867828964985

 

The lack of NVGs seems to be a doctrine/budget constraint, rather than technical limitation.


Edited by Ramsay
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Make an exception... maybe this way you will make another one and give the option to remove the minigun from the minigun variant :)

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Ramsay, the Gazelle used in the video and flown by the special force of the french army is a 342m without the viviane and all the extra stuff like doors. The one we made and used is supposed to be the 341L, which was never equipped with nvg lighting and retired long time ago, which made it nearly impossible to find documentation on rocket pods or either the gun.

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And what is your assessment of night firing of the Mini-gun equipped Gazelle by the French Army technical section.

 

https://www.facebook.com/LeGamStat/videos/281867828964985/?v=281867828964985

 

The lack of NVGs seems to be a doctrine/budget constraint, rather than technical limitation.

 

As borchi said, its a one off.

 

And yes, a doctrine and budget constraint is often how it goes even if you have the tech to do it. But the helicopters from the 80's likely wouldn't have NVG capability, that was mostly limited to the US army. And I think these Gaz variants are mostly from that era. Its the same argument to give the FC3 planes NVG's they never had.

 

Personally I don't care too much if they add it in, with a button on the special menu to enable it to remind people that its ahistorical and can be turned off on a server.

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@borchi_2b

So i just fired up the mission editor and loaded a mission in all four Gazelle variants in dcs. And from the enduser perspective the cockpit and lighting options look (panel backlights, UV and overhead torch) to be exactly the same, might be overlooking the fine details of course :)

 

 

From my imagination, there should be no real technical obstacle for the pilots on those variants to fly with nvgs. So, are the nvgs in the M and Mistral variants kindoff deeply hooked into the electronics of those variants, or is it just a matter of putting those on the pilots helmet and connecting them to some DC box?

 

 

Now i would like to see NVGs added to these variants for the following reason; dcs players are and will use all 4 variants in all kinds of mission and fictional scenarios. Whose to say that a certain scenario does not include a story arch where an upgrade program was initiated to add nvgs.

 

 

Additionally, flying a helo close to the ground in pitch black darkness is kinda more calling for nvgs than flying a jet during the same conditions.

So, adding nvgs does not really fall into the same category like adding aim-120s or such.

 

 

You can make this opt. in via a check box in the specials tab in the settings. But i am not going on the barricades if you decide differently either. Cheers

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I would allow NVG's. Let's take the Huey for example. Our DCS Huey is a version whose armament/equipment pretty much no one has. So if you're American or German flying the Huey, the chances are that your're not flying it in a realistic configuration. Especially the German Huey has totally different avionics but it won't ever stop the Germans from flying it in DCS.

 

Each successful aircraft type has tons of modifications and export variants and as soon as you choose the skin of any other country than France, you're already violating the "realism". Chances are that this country never had a Gazelle or, if it did, then the export variant has different equipment installed. Multiplayer is full of people flying aircraft for countries which never had the types.

 

As many have mentioned, the check box in the specials tab is a good compromise.

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@borchi_2b

So i just fired up the mission editor and loaded a mission in all four Gazelle variants in dcs. And from the enduser perspective the cockpit and lighting options look (panel backlights, UV and overhead torch) to be exactly the same, might be overlooking the fine details of course :)

 

 

From my imagination, there should be no real technical obstacle for the pilots on those variants to fly with nvgs. So, are the nvgs in the M and Mistral variants kindoff deeply hooked into the electronics of those variants, or is it just a matter of putting those on the pilots helmet and connecting them to some DC box?

 

 

I think the fine details are glossed over in the GAZ (no offense borchi, I'd rather you model other stuff). Here is the rule 1.16 safe two cent version of how this works IRL.

 

1. Flight NVG's are designed to be used focused at infinity, meaning nothing in the cockpit is in focus, but even lights that you basically can't see will blind an NVG. So you can't use NVG's to read instruments.

 

2. Flight NVG's have a narrow band notch filter for a certain frequency in the visible range that they block out.

 

3. Instrument lights must transmit on this narrow frequency so a) the pilot can see them when looking under the NOD's. b) that light is attenuated enough by the filter so that it doesn't **** up the nvg's too bad.

 

4. Waaay back in the 70's 80's and 90's this was all hard to do and the details of how to do it classified for good reasons. These days its much easier, because reasons.

 

5. The Gaz cockpit we have probably isn't exactly right for each variant, but its probably like 90%.

 

6. At a guess the way it worked on the NVG model was that pilot had gogs, the gunner had his face glued to the flir screen, and the pilot did his best not to look that way. Hey that shitty 40degree FOV is good for some things after all.

 

In DCS all of this not modeled in any real fidelity. You basically get "NVG mode" that makes shit in the cockpit blurry, and shit that's not in the cockpit "green". And if you want to "look under" the nods you hit a button. Also, flight NVGs don't have variable gain, which DCS gogs do again for "game reasons".

 

You now owe me 2 cents, please remit payment to my paypal account immediately :megalol:

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I think the fine details are glossed over in the GAZ (no offense borchi, I'd rather you model other stuff). Here is the rule 1.16 safe two cent version of how this works IRL.

 

1. Flight NVG's are designed to be used focused at infinity, meaning nothing in the cockpit is in focus, but even lights that you basically can't see will blind an NVG. So you can't use NVG's to read instruments.

 

2. Flight NVG's have a narrow band notch filter for a certain frequency in the visible range that they block out.

 

3. Instrument lights must transmit on this narrow frequency so a) the pilot can see them when looking under the NOD's. b) that light is attenuated enough by the filter so that it doesn't **** up the nvg's too bad.

 

4. Waaay back in the 70's 80's and 90's this was all hard to do and the details of how to do it classified for good reasons. These days its much easier, because reasons.

 

5. The Gaz cockpit we have probably isn't exactly right for each variant, but its probably like 90%.

 

6. At a guess the way it worked on the NVG model was that pilot had gogs, the gunner had his face glued to the flir screen, and the pilot did his best not to look that way. Hey that shitty 40degree FOV is good for some things after all.

 

In DCS all of this not modeled in any real fidelity. You basically get "NVG mode" that makes shit in the cockpit blurry, and shit that's not in the cockpit "green". And if you want to "look under" the nods you hit a button. Also, flight NVGs don't have variable gain, which DCS gogs do again for "game reasons".

 

You now owe me 2 cents, please remit payment to my paypal account immediately :megalol:

 

 

Interesting post and contribution, so the DCS night vision goggles and the way they look is very accurate.

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Interesting post and contribution, so the DCS night vision goggles and the way they look is very accurate.

 

Not really. But its close. Its better on a monitor than VR where you just get the whole FOV green. The monitor with the looking through a toilet roll tube is better IMO. Otherwise DCS doesn't do a great job with what certain things should look like, actually modeling illumination levels, or the loss of visual acuity you get with NVG's. And most importantly the ability to look under is not modeled. None of which has anything to with polychop, its a general DCS issue. The FLIR modeling is even worse, don't get me started on that.


Edited by Harlikwin

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Not really. But its close. Its better on a monitor than VR where you just get the whole FOV green. The monitor with the looking through a toilet roll tube is better IMO. Otherwise DCS doesn't do a great job with what certain things should look like, actually modeling illumination levels, or the loss of visual acuity you get with NVG's. And most importantly the ability to look under is not modeled. None of which has anything to with polychop, its a general DCS issue. The FLIR modeling is even worse, don't get me started on that.

 

Was always interested in flying night missions with NVGs + VR because the reduced FOV might actually transfer well to real life NVG use.

 

Really hope they'll add the partial NVG coverage to allow for "looking under", flipping them on or off to actually be able to see instruments or monitors is terrible. The monocle mode that was (accidentally) added was really cool - only worked for VR users - but I'm guessing it's not used like that in real life?

 

Some company did an NVG lighting upgrade (amongst other things) of SA342L's for the Moroccan military, so at least it's definitely possible rather than requiring something along the lines of entirely new airframes to accomodate it.

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Yeah, the way its currently implemented in DCS for the rift at least you just get the whole screen in green. IRL the FOV for something like an ANVIS (AVS-6/9 etc) is 40 degrees, the Rift FOV is 100 or whatever. If you want to pretend you are using something like an AVS-10 (panoramic quad goggle that FOV is near 100 as well).

 

IRL its terrible to do both, you can look under/side of the gogs but then you loose situational awareness, even if for a second. I think there was a "frenchy's NVG mod" that did replicate the 40degree FOV for VR but I haven't tried it.

 

All the lighting upgrade is replacing all the lights/switches/backlights/whole avionics elements in the pit with NVG compatible ones. No new airframe needed, just cash and knowhow these days. Which is why I don't particularly care if they do it for all models or not, but just give me the "historical" option.

 

Also, do we know what "year" each gazelle model is from?

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