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Are the new updates planned to take into account night warfare and laser coding setti


kaoqumba
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As stated in the title. The K50 is the strongest armed helicopter we have. However, it lacks night combat capability and provides guidance for friendly laser guided weapons by setting laser codes. Are you considering adding them to the new avionics update? This will make the K50 stronger and more versatile.

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Yes, I really want to see FLIR added as well. It is quite annoying having an attack helicopter that cannot see at night (FLIR). I would also like to see a third pylon added so that Igla can be carried along with vhikers. The Ka-52 has it, so I don't see why the Ka-50, with the same weapons stub / wing, wouldn't have it.

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If this paid update is an upgrade of our Ka-50 from its prototype model into a Ka-50N variant or better, then I'm guaranteed to buy it. Night attack black shark or Ka-50sh with the full glass cockpit would be absolutely amazing.

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Night Warfare Works Just Fine, Currently (If you know what you are doing!)

 

(My machine is a 2011 Alienware Aurora R3 with a i7-2600 cpu and a single Asus GTX 970, 16 GB ram, running on a Samsung 850 Pro SSD... )

 

I do quite well at night with the Ka-50 using its last update.

 

Problem is : most servers are only doing day time missions, so absolutely no stealth with that not very well modeled AWACS , GCI or Game Master radars. At tree level I should not be able to be seen, especially in the valleys!! At least at night I have a slim advantage killing targets and sometimes enemy aircraft. (Watch some of Cooper's YouTube videos as to capabilities of the Vikhr missile with killing jets.)

 

Night Ops How-To Tutorial :

=================

 

I learned this guy's techniques, on my own, quite awhile ago, before he created this video. He instructs nicely and a nicely made video.

 

 

Miscellaneous Cooper's Ka-50 "Tutorials" :

==========================

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Ka-50%2BCooper

 

 

Killing Jets! (Granted, it is not at night) :

==========================


Edited by DieHard

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Laser coding is a thing in the Ka-50 as far as I know. The problem, as I understood it, is that the laser code is outside of the valid range for the western laser spotters and thus the only other vehicle that should be able to see the spot in DCS would be the Su-25, which - being FC3 and all - doesn't have that modelled.

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Would be nice to get a fully modeled Su25T module for DCS. Would be the adversary for the A-10C.

 

And NOT >>> FC3 !!

 

I'd buy one immediately even in its early release state with "hands-on" clickable buttons and switches!!

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I really want better day/night capability for the KA50... FLIR damnit! I'm not even sure its really worth it for me to buy without it. I guess better countermeasures are good though.

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I really want better day/night capability for the KA50... FLIR damnit! I'm not even sure its really worth it for me to buy without it.

 

 

EXACTLY! No offense to ED, but is this is not what everyone was asking for. Mostly it's been FLIR, Iglas, and I think some people wanted RWR. Just look over the posts in the last 11 years, and it's all there!

 

 

Considering that the Ka-52, which is what the prototype Ka-50 became, has all of this and FAR more, I don't see the problem. The President-S system is nice, and thank you!, but it's not what really needed or wanted.

 

 

Without Igla and third pylon, which is what I need in Ka-50 because EO is SOOO bad, I won't be buying without that feature.

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Amusingly, your frustration over the inability to have FLIR is totally realistic... it has been suggested that the lack of a domestic FLIR was a major reason these helicopter projects weren't mass produced in the Soviet era.

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I am not sure you guys are aware of the fact that you can equip NVG's in the Black Shark.

There are also two knobs (three in fact) that allows you to adjust Shkval saturation and contrast. (the third adjusts NVG gain)

Combined with the NVG's she has a pretty decent night attack capability against stationary targets.

 

I fail to see the problem, even though a FLIR system would be a nice addition.

If it's realistic


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Personally, I fail to see the need for an RWR. Heli's are Low Level Hell. Terrain should mask you from most radar. Only place you would need an RWR is up high in the clouds, and since you have no chaff, what are you going to do anyway? However, there is some speculation because of what has been read in certain tech docs on the internet, that the President-S may contain an RWR. Not really expecting it though for a heli.

 

 

As for NVG"s, I don't see how they deal with a day scope (the EO guidance system of my Vhikers) that can't see S*#T at night.


Edited by 3WA
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RWR is invaluable. It gives you the SA needed as to when going low, when to stop, where to look for threats, etc....

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Personally, I fail to see the need for an RWR. Heli's are Low Level Hell. Terrain should mask you from most radar. Only place you would need an RWR is up high in the clouds, and since you have no chaff, what are you going to do anyway? However, there is some speculation because of what has been read in certain tech docs on the internet, that the President-S may contain an RWR. Not really expecting it though for a heli.

 

 

As for NVG"s, I don't see how they deal with a day scope (the EO guidance system of my Vhikers) that can't see S*#T at night.

 

I would be interested as to your trials and tribulations and a report back to this thread:

======================================================

Go play in Multiplayer, the Buddyspike servers as to trying to hide from their radars , even in the trees and good luck with that!!!!!!!!!!! (AWACS , JTAC , GCI and Game Master 's RADARs)

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Laser coding is a thing in the Ka-50 as far as I know. The problem, as I understood it, is that the laser code is outside of the valid range for the western laser spotters and thus the only other vehicle that should be able to see the spot in DCS would be the Su-25, which - being FC3 and all - doesn't have that modelled.

 

Yeah. It would be so cool to have the Su-25T to have the laser code scanner implemented so you could set the Shkval for automatic scanning and then spot the KA-50 laser pointer and so on find the targets.

 

Or have the KA-50 lazing the target after Su-25A has launched the laser guided missiles on the general area.

 

As well one thing that would be great to see as an upgrade (that doesn't require any modifications) is the Ugroza.

 

  • S-5Kor
  • S-8Kor
  • S-13Kor

 

Those rockets would be the next evolution in the modern warfare in KA-50, Su-25A and Su-25T and likely the Su-33 too (IIRC the Su-33 had the IRST lazing capability as well).

 

All that you really need is the laser target designator (that KA-50 and Su-25 has) and capability to carry any rocket pods that can have S-5, S-8 or S-13 rockets.

 

At least it was presented and demonstrated at the 1999 MAKS airshow.

 

http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/ugroza/ugroza.shtml

 

The Skhval configuration panel has some interesting:

 

2040056223_KA-50Skhvaltargetingsettings.thumb.JPG.f2bbb387ad2a9b2f97ea42a03b99ad97.JPG

 

Like what all those filter settings really offer? One symbol looks like sunrise/sunset (sun behind horizon), one is black so it must be night, one has the * that looks like a laser filter or could it be a "star"?

 

Of course they can be "Half", "Full" and "Starbrust" :-D

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Personally, I fail to see the need for an RWR. Heli's are Low Level Hell. Terrain should mask you from most radar. Only place you would need an RWR is up high in the clouds, and since you have no chaff, what are you going to do anyway? However, there is some speculation because of what has been read in certain tech docs on the internet, that the President-S may contain an RWR. Not really expecting it though for a heli.

 

The helicopter is not like an airplane. You are not measuring its position by its fuselage that you can hide.

 

Often people will forget that helicopter has a huge high speed rotating disk above their heads. That rotor has a total surface area of 330.26 m²!

The rotor blade tips are rotating near supersonic speed, just below it so they don't break the sound barrier, and that is regardless the blades pitch as the RPM is adjusted by governor to stay constant.

 

Continually the whole rotor disk is having multiple directions and variable speeds in radar detection. Why the radar sees helicopter rotors as huge jammer, a reflection generator that is going all directions at all kind speeds.

 

At the blade rotates, its blade tip is going faster than the root of the blade. So there is huge speed difference there.

 

The rotor is rotating around, and you have multiple blades, all are going constantly to every possible directions there is. When one blade is retreating, the other is advancing. When one goes to left, the other goes to right.

 

The helicopter, regardless its altitude, is on the radar a clear target source, but it can't be targeted as the radar can't make out anything that where it is, where it is going or how big it really is. Totally jammed source. So the radars has the special filter for helicopters. And new radars has automatic modes to detect that it is helicopter and use special filters for it alone.

 

So you can fly as low you want, as slow or fast you want, but the rotor disk is there to reveal your position to everyone.

 

This is one of the things why the RAH-66 failed, because the fuselage stealth materials didn't help to avoid the rotor blades problem. The rotor blades couldn't be shaped and covered to get them stealthy enough, as the air dynamics suffered too much.

 

While the RAH-66 RCS went down dramatically, it was still too big target and just no use for the cost and effort in maintenance. Nice idea, just doesn't work.

 

As for NVG"s, I don't see how they deal with a day scope (the EO guidance system of my Vhikers) that can't see S*#T at night.

 

What I wonder that what is so special at the night, that the Vikhr laser guidance range drops down? It should not affect at all to the rance is it night or day when it comes to guidance and flight range. But if you can't spot the target and lock the target, it is difficult to launch anything against something you can't see.

 

I always admired the AH-64D radar being in the mast, from the OH-58 Kiowa that got it first.

The idea that you fly behind the ridge, behind the treeline or building and only your sensor pod or radar is peeking behind. Your rotor disk being obscured and so on nothing really to see on radar. And then you could launch the hellfire missiles with lobbing them up in the sky and just let them rain from the above to the targets.

 

But then when you consider that you are sacrificing the radar capability by its size and position, the same for the optical tracking etc. It is just easier to have things in front of you or below you, as if you are fighting at longer ranges, you want to fly high and then you need to look a lot below you. So on mountains etc, you are above at high.

 

And this is same thing with the President-S, it is positioned to look below, not so much above, while it has capability to look upwards as well. But mainly it is capable look straight down even.

 

As if you are behind a treeline, you can't see a s"#! in european warfare. Maybe if you hang on the forest island you can see just that 1-2 kilometers, but nothing more.

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RWR is invaluable. It gives you the SA needed as to when going low, when to stop, where to look for threats, etc....

I'm feeling naked everytime we get out without a Gazelle on our side

 

It is more for the sudden fighter attacks that it would help against. As so many would be locking you from distance.

 

Otherwise just flying NOE is better way, and most dangerous targets you would have are MANPADS and AAA.

 

If there would be a SAM battery somewhere, there would be couple dozen MANPADS around it at about 10-15 km range from it. And couple dozen AAA and even more HMG.

 

You wouldn't get anywhere near a SAM battery with helicopter that you would need to worry anything about their radars.

 

That is not simulated in the DCS, as it can't run thousands of infantry around the map positioned in defence or offence. And virtual pilots want to feel like a rockstars by blowing things up, a lot.

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Amusingly, your frustration over the inability to have FLIR is totally realistic... it has been suggested that the lack of a domestic FLIR was a major reason these helicopter projects weren't mass produced in the Soviet era.

 

Yup. Soviets didnt have a working native flir till the 90s and even then they mainly bought stuff from the west as a stopgap.

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I am not sure you guys are aware of the fact that you can equip NVG's in the Black Shark.

There are also two knobs (three in fact) that allows you to adjust Shkval saturation and contrast. (the third adjusts NVG gain)

Combined with the NVG's she has a pretty decent night attack capability against stationary targets.

 

I fail to see the problem, even though a FLIR system would be a nice addition.

If it's realistic

 

Yeah but nvgs aint flir... admitedly both are badly modled currently in DCS especially FLIR.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Bottom line and full disclosure up front: I support abstracting a Low Light Television (LLTV) or FLIR setup in a separate version of the KA50 along with the ability to designate NATO compatible laser codes.

 

The KA50 in DCS is not a production model, in fact it appears that only very limited numbers of the single seat KA-50 (the model we have or N/Sh, and not the two-seat KA-52) variants were ever produced.* The only combat time these aircraft have seen in a pair deployed to Chechnya effectively for combat testing in 2000-2001.

 

Effectively what we are flying is a pre-production aircraft, and it looks like the paid ED upgrade KA50 will be a subsequent test bed fitted with Igla AAMs and some better self-defence systems. My understanding is that the reason these specific versions are modeled by ED is that they are the ones they could get sufficient realworld physical/documentation access to and nothing indicates either are fitted with LLTV/FLIR Shkval.

 

As far as night attack capability goes, this post shows either the KA50N or KA50Sh.** From research, it would appear that these models have significantly revised cockpits and controls to account for a whole other set of optics. Additionally, the renders for the paid upgrade show no change to the physical setup of the KA50 Shkval, which suggests its the same old day TV only sight and therefore only limited (if any) updates to the cockpit).

 

So, the question becomes: are players happy to forgo some realism to simply give the Shkval a LLTV or FLIR capability? Because, unless they historically managed to shoehorn a Russian built LLTV or FLIR setup into the original nose cavity, its going to remain day only.***

This FLIR/LLTV capability could be accomplished in the current cockpit by re-purposing an unused switch around the Shkval controls to toggle day/night mode and ripping off the SU25T LLTV/FLIR rendering already in game. The same could be done for the Laser Designator to get it to produce US compatible codes.****

 

To do this, there would be three different versions of the KA50 in game (sort of like how we have A10As and A10Cs): The version we currently have now, the 'authentic' upgraded version that will be released as a paid update (Day Shkval only) and a 'plus' version that is the authentic version with the addition of LLTV/FLIR and NATO laser code compatibility.

For those demanding the experience of flying a one-off prototype helicopter in all its tacked-together glory, the first two versions are available. For those that want a 'what-if' variant that fills the gap of an all weather attack helicopter that can allow buddy lasing scenarios, the 'plus' version can be placed in missions.

 

Fundamentally, this comes down to how willing the community is to accept some abstractions in the KA50. Having multiple versions removes the complaint of purists being forced to fly a version of the helo that didn't exist. MP servers can place whatever version they want in to satisfy their needs.

 

 

 

Notes:

 

 

* Likely less than 40. I note this is a best guess based on internet research as it would appear that single aircraft may have been modified over time to become new versions

 

** The top one appears to have a re-positioned Shkval in addition to a FLIR turret (N model) while the second is likely an Sh model. Or, they are both prototype Sh models..

 

*** Russian designed LLTV/FLIR optics contemporary to the KA50 are bulky and required the significant modification of the nose as per the KA50Sh

 

**** I note that the SU25T (and A10A) is able to detect code 1113 from NATO aircraft and JTACs, which indicates that ED are willing to abstract this mechanic for gameplay purposes.

 

Donald, David, and Daniel J. March. "Ka-50/52, Kamov's 'Hokum' family". Modern Battlefield Warplanes. AIRtime Publishing, 2004. ISBN 1-880588-76-5.


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