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Will there ever be a SA342sim?


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i'm real helicopter pilot, i have a lots of flight hours (3000+) over a different type of helicopter with SAS and ATT stabilization computer, and i'm sorry, but the DCS Gazalle fly like a RC helicopter. The DCS KA50 (SAS too) fly very well like a real helo and also the Mi8.

 

Plese Tune the flight model, it's very bad, and i'm very sad, because i love the small attack helos.

 

THX

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Virtual dampening is a must for simulation. The collective of the KA-50 is a good example. If you could move it as fast as you like you would break simulation parameters (and by the way damage gears, engine etc.). Stuff like this needs to be mildly disconnected from user input in a way that you can adapt to it when you learn to fly the aircraft. Some Throttle devices have customizable mechanical dampening, this helps a little with haptics, but the simulation has to be nearly 1:1 within it's real life flight model or atleast as good as possible.

 

There are some things that can be dampened, but in reality you can do very hard adjustments as there is nothing limiting you in many controls. Sure there are things like Mig-29 has the strength requirement for moving stick, or some helicopter collectives has dampening crease in them, but it should be by each aircraft itself how it is done.

 

Yet the controls should be as much as possible 1:1 to the real thing if there is no real dampening. Force shouldn't affect it, just that if there is a such dampening that you can't move a real control faster than lets say 14 degree a second no matter is the control force 2kg or is it 25kg, but that is up to the actual mechanic.

 

MiG-29/Su-27S are from the FC3 package, don't expect them to be on par with standalone modules on the grade of simulation.

 

They have just got PFM modeling. That is what one would expect from the module flight modeling that you will have all the small effects of the air for the flying. That has nothing to do with the cockpit instrument modeling but just all about the flight modeling.

 

That is about the details and level of the flight modeling, like Heatblur modules (Viggen and TomCat) you actually get the immersion of flying as the aircraft has all the small flight modeling behaviors, something that many other doesn't have. And Heatblur even has imroved that immersion by sound, so you hear the bolts, cables, levelers etc sounds that informs you audible that what is happening.

 

And, because i'm a lucky owner of a FFB joystick, DCS replicates realistic resistance for my inputs caused by the air, velocity etc. (in nearly all standalone modules, but not the gazelle).

 

Yes, I own as well Force Feedback joystick but don't use it anymore. I did fly Gazelle when it came out with about 35 cm (IIRC) extension on G940 and that was the time when Gazelle was confirmed to have realistic flight modeling, and that helicopter flipped around just by 2 cm movements of the cyclic. Couldn't even consider what it was without extension! But since then it has gone even more to "RC" kind flight modeling where it just flies unrealistic manner, like a giant would be hanging you from a string and play with the helicopter you believe you are flying.

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Will it ever leave it's alpha/early access state?

 

 

**********

24/04/2018

**********

<snip>

- The Gazelle module goes out of beta state, potential still existing issues will be corrected in time.

 

:noexpression:

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I'm a real helicopter pilot too and I'm happy with the Gazelle. The two points I'd like to see improved are multicrew and that control damping. In a real helicopter I can move the controls full deflection as fast as I want unless the hydraulics fail. It might break the helicopter doing that but thats why you don't. As the damping stands now I make an input and don't get the desired response when I expect to causing me to over correct. The flight model as a whole feels pretty good as is reminiscent of flying an MD-500 to me. This is an argument we've had over and over though. Yea it's a sim but it's also a game, not a flight training device. Flying helicopters is hard. On average it takes people 10 hours of practice just to learn to hover. Do you really want to spend 10 FREAKING hours just practicing hovering before you can use a helicopter module you bought? If you want to learn how to fly a real helicopter turn off DCS find a flight school and go take an intro flight.

 

I fly helicopters for a living. I enjoy the Gazelle. I hope Polychop can fix multicrew but I'm going to continue to support their future releases.

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I'm a real helicopter pilot too and I'm happy with the Gazelle. The two points I'd like to see improved are multicrew and that control damping. In a real helicopter I can move the controls full deflection as fast as I want unless the hydraulics fail. It might break the helicopter doing that but thats why you don't. As the damping stands now I make an input and don't get the desired response when I expect to causing me to over correct. The flight model as a whole feels pretty good as is reminiscent of flying an MD-500 to me. This is an argument we've had over and over though. Yea it's a sim but it's also a game, not a flight training device. Flying helicopters is hard. On average it takes people 10 hours of practice just to learn to hover. Do you really want to spend 10 FREAKING hours just practicing hovering before you can use a helicopter module you bought? If you want to learn how to fly a real helicopter turn off DCS find a flight school and go take an intro flight.

 

I fly helicopters for a living. I enjoy the Gazelle. I hope Polychop can fix multicrew but I'm going to continue to support their future releases.

 

Good words, all our "sims" are between 70% & 80% said by another heli pilot I know.

Chinook lover - Rober -

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Do you really want to spend 10 FREAKING hours just practicing hovering before you can use a helicopter module you bought?

Absolutely! And that's exactly what we do because that's what we call fun. That's why we buy computers and flight sim gear worth of a decent car. That's why this sim brings real pilots and military people along and creates such a mature, challenging and inspiring environment. That's why we are proud of it!

For most of us this is as close as we can come to flying real aircraft for various reasons. Knowing that it's as real as it gets is crucial.

In any other case the game wouldn't deserve to be called a simulator.

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Absolutely! And that's exactly what we do because that's what we call fun. That's why we buy computers and flight sim gear worth of a decent car. That's why this sim brings real pilots and military people along and creates such a mature, challenging and inspiring environment. That's why we are proud of it!

For most of us this is as close as we can come to flying real aircraft for various reasons. Knowing that it's as real as it gets is crucial.

In any other case the game wouldn't deserve to be called a simulator.

 

Fair enough then man but if thats the case I hate to tell you IMHO the Huey flight model needs a lot of work. I prefer the Gazelle to the Huey in the game because I fly the real Huey and this one drives me nuts. Don't get me wrong it falls into the "close enough" category but it doesn't feel like the real thing to me.

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Fair enough then man but if thats the case I hate to tell you IMHO the Huey flight model needs a lot of work. I prefer the Gazelle to the Huey in the game because I fly the real Huey and this one drives me nuts. Don't get me wrong it falls into the "close enough" category but it doesn't feel like the real thing to me.

 

I think I know you from the discord, mi nick there is Rober

Chinook lover - Rober -

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Fair enough then man but if thats the case I hate to tell you IMHO the Huey flight model needs a lot of work. I prefer the Gazelle to the Huey in the game because I fly the real Huey and this one drives me nuts. Don't get me wrong it falls into the "close enough" category but it doesn't feel like the real thing to me.

 

Then you are in the minority. The Huey FM is not perfect, but still more of a helicopter than the Gaz.

But this is going in circles. I don't believe PC will ever publish a new, authentic FM. I think effort from the users put into this is wasted time.

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Then you are in the minority. The Huey FM is not perfect, but still more of a helicopter than the Gaz.

But this is going in circles. I don't believe PC will ever publish a new, authentic FM. I think effort from the users put into this is wasted time.

 

Ouch.

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Ouch.

 

Hardly. I know my experiences and opinions on the matter. I try to be an asset and share them. You don't see me bashing the Huey on its forum because it is close enough. But when they asked for help from pilots I offered and took the video of the TOT gauge in autorotation for them but haven't heard back yet. If people don't care for my input on the matter that doesn't bother me. But if one pilot can get on and say the Gazelle FM isn't any good I can come here and disagree. Draw you own conclusions and enjoy your confirmation bias. I think anyone who expects a desktop sim to fly 100% accurate to a real helicopter is insane though.

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Then you are in the minority. The Huey FM is not perfect, but still more of a helicopter than the Gaz.

But this is going in circles. I don't believe PC will ever publish a new, authentic FM. I think effort from the users put into this is wasted time.

You are wrong, a new fm is being done, is expected to be released this year.

Chinook lover - Rober -

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i'm real helicopter pilot, i have a lots of flight hours (3000+) over a different type of helicopter with SAS and ATT stabilization computer, and i'm sorry, but the DCS Gazalle fly like a RC helicopter. The DCS KA50 (SAS too) fly very well like a real helo and also the Mi8.

 

Plese Tune the flight model, it's very bad, and i'm very sad, because i love the small attack helos.

 

THX

 

Yes like a modern flybarless RC Helicopter. There you usually have a fly-by-wire type system that takes a self-centering cyclic stick into account and compensates the helicopter typical behaviour.

The real Gazelle's SAS is not capable of doing this. And it's SAS can be switched off.

 

Btw. Even manned FBW Helicopters do not compensate the helicopter typical symptoms.

 

 

Hardly. I know my experiences and opinions on the matter. I try to be an asset and share them. You don't see me bashing the Huey on its forum because it is close enough. But when they asked for help from pilots I offered and took the video of the TOT gauge in autorotation for them but haven't heard back yet. If people don't care for my input on the matter that doesn't bother me. But if one pilot can get on and say the Gazelle FM isn't any good I can come here and disagree. Draw you own conclusions and enjoy your confirmation bias. I think anyone who expects a desktop sim to fly 100% accurate to a real helicopter is insane though.

 

Very strange to read from a RL Helicopter pilot that he is fine with the Gazelle's FM. The Huey has a lot of room for improvements. The Engine for example ist very far away from its real counterpart. But the FM feels authentic if you use a FFB joystick. Something you can't do with the Gaz because of the lack of FFB support from PolyChops side. And the Huey's FM (and Hip's) has also problems, if you know what to look for. Nobody asks for 100% accuracy, but it shouldn't feel like a lunar lander in an atmosphere free environment either.

 

You are wrong, a new fm is being done, is expected to be released this year.
I hope that I am wrong and you are right, I really do.

 

Fox

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Why is it strange? I fly with this https://pro-flight-trainer-com.myshopify.com/ in vr. I'd say the HIP has the best helicopter flight model in DCS but both it and the Huey suffer from exaggerated VRS, being both too easy to get into and too difficult to get out of. I'm guessing it's scripted. Anyway the Gazelle is not without flaws. But sitting in it in VR with the cyclic collective setup it feels more like I expect a light fully articulated helicopter to feel like then the huey feels like a huey. Admittedly I have no IRL gaz flight time but I have 700 hours in an md-500 and it feels pretty similar to that. I only have 66 hours in a real Huey but its all pretty recent. My point is the Gaz feels believeable to me and if we want to pick nits where are the pitchforks for the other helicopters? Why is the hate focused on the Gazelle? Oh well, I like it. We're not going to change each others minds.

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I have 154hours of real flight in the Gazelle and 3000h + in other helicopters.

I am helicopter instructor since 15 years on French helicopters.

 

The DCS Gazelle has big problems considering FM.

 

First of all:

A steady cyclic displacement on the right or the left side doesn't correspond to a roll angle of X degrees like it is IRL. In DCS the Gazelle never stop rolling until fly on the back... IRL if you displace the cyclic x cm on the right, you will have a x degrees roll angle (it's a little bit simplified but too hard to explain in English for me)

Just compare the MI8 and the Gazelle in DCS. Fly both at 120km/h (or the speed you want) and displace your stick 3cm on the right or left and maintain it. Just look at the behavior of your helicopter ������. The MI8 is realistic, the Gazelle is....

 

I agree with comments on the VRS in DCS. If it was like that in real life I wouldn't be able to write a comment on Ed's forum: I would be dead.

 

Sorry for my English.

There are some other weird things on the FM of the DCS Gazelle. I explained all of them to Polychop guys. They are working on it.... Or they are working on the next chopper and maybe... Maybe one day they will work again on the Gazelle.

 

I am angry because Polychop never made a statement on the problem of their FM. They know all the mistakes they've done thanks to real pilots feedbacks but they don't speak about it and still earn money based on a lie.

 

Some guys tell that ALAT pilots were happy with the FM when testing the Gazelle on DCS.

It's normal because when you test a Sim for the first time when you are also a real pilot, you miss the real sensation of flight that you are used to. And you pilot the Sim in response to the instant behavior of the module. I made the same mistake during the first 2 hours of flight with the Gazelle. I was like a child when I saw the cockpit for the first time, it was like 15 years ago when I learnt to fly in ALAT school at Dax. But passing the first 2 hours trying to apply curves on axes to have a realistic feeling, I never succeeded to reach a realistic FM. Then I searched for the mistakes and I have discovered some.

After that I performed a test flight with Polychop guys and now we are waiting for the new FM. Perhaps one day. Fingers crossed.


Edited by Damcopter
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I have 154hours of real flight in the Gazelle and 3000h + in other helicopters.

I am helicopter instructor since 15 years on French helicopters.

 

The DCS Gazelle has big problems considering FM.

 

First of all:

A steady cyclic displacement on the right or the left side doesn't correspond to a roll angle of X degrees like it is IRL. In DCS the Gazelle never stop rolling until fly on the back... IRL if you displace the cyclic x cm on the right, you will have a x degrees roll angle (it's a little bit simplified but too hard to explain in English for me)

Just compare the MI8 and the Gazelle in DCS. Fly both at 120km/h (or the speed you want) and displace your stick 3cm on the right or left and maintain it. Just look at the behavior of your helicopter ������. The MI8 is realistic, the Gazelle is....

 

I agree with comments on the VRS in DCS. If it was like that in real life I wouldn't be able to write a comment on Ed's forum: I would be dead.

 

Sorry for my English.

There are some other weird things on the FM of the DCS Gazelle. I explained all of them to Polychop guys. They are working on it.... Or they are working in the next chopper and maybe... Maybe on day they will work again on the Gazelle.

 

I am angry because Polychop never made a statement on the problem of their FM. They know all the mistakes they've done thanks to real pilots feedbacks but they don't speak about it and still earn money based on a lie.

 

Some guys tell that ALAT pilots were happy with the FM when testing the Gazelle on DCS.

It's normal because when you test a Sim for the first time when you are also a real pilot, you miss the real sensation of flight that you are used to. And you pilot the Sim in response to the instant behavior of the module. I made the same mistake during the first 2 hours of flight with the Gazelle. I was like a child when I saw the cockpit for the first time, it was like 15 years ago when I learnt to fly in ALAT school at Dax. But passing the first 2 hours trying to apply curves on axes to have a realistic feeling, I never succeeded to reach a realistic FM. Then I searched for the mistakes and I have discovered some.

After that I performed a test flight with Polychop guys and now we are waiting for the new FM. Perhaps one day. Fingers crossed.

 

Well with hat in hand I defer to the actual Gazelle pilot then. Thank you for your input Damcopter.

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I regret my purchase also, there should be a big warning on the shop page "No FFB support". I bought this because i already had all the other heli modules and expected the same quality. Now i only have a nice Gazelle 3D model to sit in, flying is a pretty underwhelming experience.

 

 

@Jester986 Is it realistic that a pilot has to fly this thing with extremely cautious cyclic movements, like max 1cm from center? Why can i move the cyclic all the way around 1:1 (~30cm in all directions) before startup and after that 5mm of input is all i need to get it to full speed?

i9 10920X @4.8GHz, X299X HEDT mainboard, RTX3090 OC, quad channel 64 GB RAM @3600, Valve Index, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with FFB base mod (G940), DCS: all modules

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I don't worry so much about a direct 1 to 1 movement of the controls to the real thing. However helicopters are extremely sensitive to control inputs. When I was a flight instructor I'd tell student to only think about what they wanted the helicopter to do and not to think about moving the controls because when you think "bank left" your hand will subconsciously drift a little left and that was all the input needed. Otherwise students end up over controlling. I also taught students to try to keep cyclic movements down to the size of a silver dollar, then a quarter, then a nickel, then a dime and that helps them get smoother on the controls. So couple that sensitivity with a short armed joystick instead of a long armed cyclic and you lose a lot of your fine control. Also most joysticks have centering springs you have to fight against. Most helicopters I've flown the cyclic will just flop over to one side or the other if you let go of it in flight. A few have force trim where it will hold it in place for you until you press a button to make an adjustment or like in the 500 where you make a movement then take the pressure off with the trim hat.

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When flying though I don't think move X control Y amount, I think move the control until I get the desired reaction. Most flying if done smoothly you hardly see the controls move at all although some stuff does require being more aggressive like sling loading, mostly to stop the load quickly if it starts to swing.

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Yes, works well for the other modules...

 

 

However, i'm asking myself why Polychop didn't ask for assistance on inputs and FFB. Eagle Dynamics or Belsimtek, both have interest in DCS to flourish, so why not ask for a little help on the important stuff?

i9 10920X @4.8GHz, X299X HEDT mainboard, RTX3090 OC, quad channel 64 GB RAM @3600, Valve Index, HOTAS & Rudder: all Virpil with FFB base mod (G940), DCS: all modules

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