Appeal for calm in the DCS F-16 community

[Teeter]

NineLine, Wags, just so you guys know, you can disable Reddit PMs entirely (only approved users can send) if you're receiving shitty messages directly: https://www.reddit.com/prefs/blocked :thumbup:

[Nerdwing]

Wags is the closest thing to a hero I know of and I thank him for his service!!!!

[Mars Exulte]

We won't know how a plane is going to turn out until it's completely done. Some of the team has left the Hornet to work on the Viper. Doesn't that slow down the Hornet from being finished?

 

Why not put the whole team on one plane until it's finished? Then move to the next plane. That's how most every other sim/game do it.

 

I've been involved with car racing sims. Nobody would buy a new track or car that wasn't finished. Yes, it might need some hot fixes after it's released but the items have all features when released. Would you buy a car or track that wasn't finished? Here's the new car. Be careful driving it. It has no brakes.

 

Because none of that crap takes years to finish. Each aircraft in DCS takes as long as a full game for dev usually. If they did it that way, you'd have 1/5th as many aircraft and 1/5th as many players and they have approximately zero dollars. Stop telling them how to run their business. How long did it take to prepare a car or track? Weeks? Less?

 

 

 

-at general community

The faux outrage many exhibit around here is unjustified. Despite frequent claims to the contrary, barring the Hawk, none of the aircraft here are unusable or unenjoyable regardless of version or flaws. EVERY aircraft here, even the new/half finished ones are perfectly flyable. Claims otherwise are from full on drama queens, full stop.

 

If people want it super real and want to fly 'realisitic military aircraft' they should enlist, but they won't do that because it's easier to huff Cheetos dust out of their neckbeards and pound on a keyboard while fantasising about their wouldbe military skills and how badass they would be if they were a real soldier.

[MarkP]

Folks..

 

I get we're all super excited, and we all have features we want, are disappointed if we don't get, they're delayed, they're changed...

 

But can we just please stop the perpetual outrage cycle that has been building in this group for the last week? It's exhausting for us as a community and I'm sure for the devs and ED folks who have to deal with this.

 

Thank you

[UrgentSiesta]

I stand by the entire post.

 

I think perhaps we might be kindred spirits, so just some friendly advice / constructive criticism from someone who's already walked several miles in your shoes.

[BuzzU]

Because none of that crap takes years to finish. Each aircraft in DCS takes as long as a full game for dev usually. If they did it that way, you'd have 1/5th as many aircraft and 1/5th as many players and they have approximately zero dollars. Stop telling them how to run their business. How long did it take to prepare a car or track? Weeks? Less?

 

 

 

-at general community

The faux outrage many exhibit around here is unjustified. Despite frequent claims to the contrary, barring the Hawk, none of the aircraft here are unusable or unenjoyable regardless of version or flaws. EVERY aircraft here, even the new/half finished ones are perfectly flyable. Claims otherwise are from full on drama queens, full stop.

 

If people want it super real and want to fly 'realisitic military aircraft' they should enlist, but they won't do that because it's easier to huff Cheetos dust out of their neckbeards and pound on a keyboard while fantasising about their wouldbe military skills and how badass they would be if they were a real soldier.

 

A mod usually takes 2-3 years. I've seen tracks take a year or so. One track has been worked on for 3-4 years and it's not done yet.

 

So, it's crap because you don't have any interest in it? Are you always so narrow minded?

[98abaile]

I think the main thing that was putting me off was actually the PR disaster that was splitting up multiplayer with the carrier DLC (jury's still out on the one; over to ED), only to then get negative news about the F-16. Basically a bad time for more bad news.

The lack of the sniper pod is the only thing I'm a bit sad about now, but I understand the reason. TERs weren't a big issue for me, but I'm grateful they'll be in since it's an opportunity for fun. I'm very happy that JSOW is back in since I like the idea of using exotic weapons.

I think I'll be preordering it on Friday.

[NineLine]

I think the main thing that was putting me off was actually the PR disaster that was splitting up multiplayer with the carrier DLC (jury's still out on the one; over to ED), only to then get negative news about the F-16. Basically a bad time for more bad news.

The lack of the sniper pod is the only thing I'm a bit sad about now, but I understand the reason. TERs weren't a big issue for me, but I'm grateful they'll be in since it's an opportunity for fun. I'm very happy that JSOW is back in since I like the idea of using exotic weapons.

I think I'll be preordering it on Friday.

 

Regardless of how bad the news is, and I know things can be worse for some than others, but at no point was there anything that required someone to be abusive or immature. I spent much of that day communicating with users that had no issue communicating in a mature manner, and that feedback was able to be passed on to ED. I believe that if there is a better solution for the carrier issues, the team is hard at it.

 

The SNIPER pod was a bit weird, they have some new SME's, they need to make sure all the docs they have are correct and usable, of course, the SNIPER makes sense to have, but at the last minute, the Viper team decided it was safest to brace for the worst case scenario and say its out right now. It's better to pre-order knowing it's possible it won't come and get it later than the other way around.

 

But again, dissatisfaction in issues like this are welcome only if they can be conveyed in a mature constructive manner. And if you are too frustrated then don't preorder, the preorder will be going for a few months, you have plenty of time to see how it progresses.

[jers]

They were really doing well, but it's become quite toxic of late, so ED as started to focus communications else where, I personally have been having good chats on places like Discord with users

 

Sadly Wags gave up on the for a while now and won't even read over there, I was a little more stubborn but the personal attacks, even in PMs there are too much now.

 

As an admin on Hoggit it's a pretty frustrating line to walk because we know you're upset and we try our best to ensure that player's frustrations are centered on the product. I feel like we (meaning the community, as much as the administration) does a pretty solid job at calling out bad behavior, and personal attacks are one of the few things we freely swing the banhammer for.

 

That all being said, toxicity is not disagreeing with your business practices, even vehemently so. And we go to the extent of our abilities to ensure that the conversation stays on the product. We are not perfect as we are not omni-present, but we clean up things when we find it and we encourage the community as hard as we can to do the same. I also highly encourage everyone to use the facilities that reddit provides to help us identify when things go to far so that we can help you. We are not products, we are people and everyone here will respect that or be asked to leave.

 

But this 100% feels like ED using Hoggit as a vehicle for their own frustrations. Using our "toxicity" as a scapegoat for the, let's be frank, failings of DCS World doesn't feel fair. It's not Hoggit's toxicity that created a system that can potentially cost $<insert dollar amount here> with every new addon or module that comes out. Imagine if you had to buy $200 worth of add-ons to be able to play on GAW. And then imagine something else came out so now the people who have already paid $200 now have to pay $59.99 more, or new players $259.99 if we enforced their use. Look at the number of products you have in early access. It isn't Hoggit's toxicity that made you guys have 45% of your available modules in early access, With even more on the way!

 

We love DCS, it's obvious. We adore your product, it's why we're all here. We want the best for it. But you guys don't foster healthy discussion on your forums, so that tends to pour gas on fires you have set yourself. And the worst thing about having to make this post is that we think as a company you guys are wonderful and have the best 4th gen simulation that will likely ever be made for the consumer market. We have your back through so much of this (many of us are software developers ourselves and understand the pressures that come with that), and we personally work hard to make sure that we have a healthy community so that everyone can thrive even through the rough times and rough decisions (God knows we've had our share on Hoggit too). So Hoggit, being one of the few populous places where people can talk about the flaws of the product freely, is going to have large buildups of negative opinions from time to time and I highly highly encourage you to work *with* us to make that better instead of... whatever this is.

Edited May 22, 2019 by jers

[splash]

Indeed, certainly not an operationally valid loadout. However, after talking with the team yesterday, we'll probably allow it for those that want to be so inaccurate.

 

Thanks

 

Thaaaanks!

[HC_Official]

Great post Jers ( though you might want to edit it to remove the SWEAR words), they dont like bad words on here

I hope that ED keep engaging with the Hoggit community, they can get a more rounded picture of what ED customers ideas are

Edited May 22, 2019 by HC_Official

[rrohde]

@NineLine - You have the patience of a saint; just sayin' :thumbup:

[umkhunto]

As an admin on Hoggit it's a pretty frustrating line to walk because we know you're upset and we try our best to ensure that player's frustrations are centered on the product. I feel like we (meaning the community, as much as the administration) does a pretty solid job at calling out bad behavior, and personal attacks are one of the few things we freely swing the banhammer for.

 

That all being said, toxicity is not disagreeing with your business practices, even vehemently so. And we go to the extent of our abilities to ensure that the conversation stays on the product. We are not perfect as we are not omni-present, but we clean up things when we find it and we encourage the community as hard as we can to do the same. I also highly encourage everyone to use the facilities that reddit provides to help us identify when things go to far so that we can help you. We are not products, we are people and everyone here will respect that or be asked to leave.

 

But this 100% feels like ED using Hoggit as a vehicle for their own frustrations. Using our "toxicity" as a scapegoat for the, let's be frank, failings of DCS World doesn't feel fair. It's not Hoggit's toxicity that created a system that can potentially cost $<insert dollar amount here> with every new addon or module that comes out. Imagine if you had to buy $200 worth of add-ons to be able to play on GAW. And then imagine something else came out so now the people who have already paid $200 now have to pay $59.99 more, or new players $259.99 if we enforced their use. Look at the number of products you have in early access. It isn't Hoggit's toxicity that made you guys have 45% of your available modules in early access, With even more on the way!

 

We love DCS, it's obvious. We adore your product, it's why we're all here. We want the best for it. But you guys don't foster healthy discussion on your forums, so that tends to pour gas on fires you have set yourself. And the worst thing about having to make this post is that we think as a company you guys are wonderful and have the best 4th gen simulation that will likely ever be made for the consumer market. We have your back through so much of this (many of us are software developers ourselves and understand the pressures that come with that), and we personally work hard to make sure that we have a healthy community so that everyone can thrive even through the rough times and rough decisions (God knows we've had our share on Hoggit too). So Hoggit, being one of the few populous places where people can talk about the flaws of the product freely, is going to have large buildups of negative opinions from time to time and I highly highly encourage you to work *with* us to make that better instead of... whatever this is.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Imo much of the F-16 stuff was faux outrage on the heels of the carrier dlc announcement. On one side you have a rabid bunch of nerds that love DCS, who were firstly triggered about the carrier dlc, then you add to that a fanatical group that worship the F-16, that has probably the longest history in combat flight sims, which will have the inevitable result of being compared to that other sim we're not allowed to name.

 

I too would have liked tripple Mavs, but if it's not part of the version we're getting it's A-OK too. I rarely fly with more than 4 Mavs on the A-10C, because it handles like a pig in that config. I don't care about JASSM, nor do I care about Harpoon. (Air Force birds have no business flying over water anyway, the Hornets will take care of the sea.) I'm excited about the F-16, because I will have a platform that can carry big boy CBU's faster to the AO faster than 220KIAS and can't wait for a proper HOTAS. (Stupid Navy pretend HOTAS.) I'm 100% certain, that's what the majority feel as well.

 

Hoggit might appear toxic at a glance, because criticism isn't silenced there. You can't just sit in an echo chamber where you never look in the mirror. And if being critical, is now been seen as toxic, well in that case I'll just keep being toxic. It would be a pity if Nine stops engaging there.

[VirusAM]

Appeal for calm in the DCS F-16 community

 

Indeed, certainly not an operationally valid loadout. However, after talking with the team yesterday, we'll probably allow it for those that want to be so inaccurate.

 

 

 

Thanks

 

 

 

I really think you have a saint’s patience, having to deal with the tons of bad comments some people throws at you guys.

 

I think that allowing something like that is anyway a good decision, first to calm down some people but also because this is always a game also if it is also the best and most accurate combat simulation on the market, and allow some compromise could be a good fun factor sometimes.

Maybe, with a proper disclaimer obviously, you could also allow some compromise on something you cannot get enough data on open sources like newer tech and toys.

 

Anyway in conclusion I really hope you, nineline and all the ED staff understand that most people here supports you guys and thanks you for all your hard work and for the hours of fun we are getting here.

Also a lot of us buys some of the modules only to fund and support you. Flight sims were about to die 10 years ago (and the lack of real competitors demonstrate how much niche is our loved hobby) and we don’t want that to happen again.

Thanks for everything and for letting our real life failed dreams to happen on a computer (or vr headset) screen.

[TomCatMucDe]

it is amazing that people start insults for an F16 anouncement because they wont have a missile or a functionality!

I was thinking that simmers are smarter than other gaming communities, it appears that many are just asocial aggressive people who use DCS and other games to defuse their frustration.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

it is amazing that people start insults for an F16 anouncement because they wont have a missile or a functionality!

I was thinking that simmers are smarter than other gaming communities, it appears that many are just asocial aggressive people who use DCS and other games to defuse their frustration.

 

Too true.

[NineLine]

Look I have nothing against anyone there. Honestly, I don't. What I have said is that I have tried to play over there with Hoggit, knowing its a little more wild west. I have used the report post feature when I felt things got a little too personal, of which I rarely see a reported post, that I reported anyways get any sort of moderator attention. Yet I tried to maintain a presence there, I tried to engage positive and negative opinions. But honestly, it's just too much now... moderating others is not a fun job, it's not enjoyable to have to enforce rules, I know that first hand, I am pretty much single-handedly blamed for every moderation action on this forum, whether I did it or not, so I get it. It's not fun to moderate your buddies, friends or people you play DCS with.

 

The issue is this. ED is not perfect, I am not perfect, ED tries to release and supply the best Flight Sim content it can while maintaining a viable business model that keeps the lights on and food in the tanks. I deal with the fires we create or ones that people feel are fires every single day. All I ever ask is that people do it in a mature and constructive manner. And I hoped for that at Hoggit... no not as strict, they don't have to play to any age group, they can have bad words, I get it, but if the comments are insulting, abusive, etc, and there is no sign of moderation, I'm sorry, I can't take the time to fight all those battles.

 

So what is this? This is me saying my presence on Hoggit is done for now. I did try, and you can't say that I didn't, I reported things I thought were bad, I answered the positive and negative. I stuck around when it was suggested I didn't have to. I hate giving up, I still feel more are good than bad there, but I just need to focus my energy elsewhere, where I feel it's not so wasted.

 

The last PM I got there was form a name/account I never saw there, so I can only assume it was a person who had another account or created another.

 

It simply said this:

 

SiThSpAwN, you are a piece of ****. With no redeeming qualities.

 

It's hard to keep going with that kind of feedback, yet I did for a number of months. For now, I am out, I continue to wish Hoggit growth and all the good eggs lots of flight simming fun, but for me, I need a break.

 

As an admin on Hoggit it's a pretty frustrating line to walk because we know you're upset and we try our best to ensure that player's frustrations are centered on the product. I feel like we (meaning the community, as much as the administration) does a pretty solid job at calling out bad behavior, and personal attacks are one of the few things we freely swing the banhammer for.

 

That all being said, toxicity is not disagreeing with your business practices, even vehemently so. And we go to the extent of our abilities to ensure that the conversation stays on the product. We are not perfect as we are not omni-present, but we clean up things when we find it and we encourage the community as hard as we can to do the same. I also highly encourage everyone to use the facilities that reddit provides to help us identify when things go to far so that we can help you. We are not products, we are people and everyone here will respect that or be asked to leave.

 

But this 100% feels like ED using Hoggit as a vehicle for their own frustrations. Using our "toxicity" as a scapegoat for the, let's be frank, failings of DCS World doesn't feel fair. It's not Hoggit's toxicity that created a system that can potentially cost $<insert dollar amount here> with every new addon or module that comes out. Imagine if you had to buy $200 worth of add-ons to be able to play on GAW. And then imagine something else came out so now the people who have already paid $200 now have to pay $59.99 more, or new players $259.99 if we enforced their use. Look at the number of products you have in early access. It isn't Hoggit's toxicity that made you guys have 45% of your available modules in early access, With even more on the way!

 

We love DCS, it's obvious. We adore your product, it's why we're all here. We want the best for it. But you guys don't foster healthy discussion on your forums, so that tends to pour gas on fires you have set yourself. And the worst thing about having to make this post is that we think as a company you guys are wonderful and have the best 4th gen simulation that will likely ever be made for the consumer market. We have your back through so much of this (many of us are software developers ourselves and understand the pressures that come with that), and we personally work hard to make sure that we have a healthy community so that everyone can thrive even through the rough times and rough decisions (God knows we've had our share on Hoggit too). So Hoggit, being one of the few populous places where people can talk about the flaws of the product freely, is going to have large buildups of negative opinions from time to time and I highly highly encourage you to work *with* us to make that better instead of... whatever this is.

[HC_Official]

Look I have nothing against anyone there. Honestly, I don't. What I have said is that I have tried to play over there with Hoggit, knowing its a little more wild west. I have used the report post feature when I felt things got a little too personal, of which I rarely see a reported post, that I reported anyways get any sort of moderator attention. Yet I tried to maintain a presence there, I tried to engage positive and negative opinions. But honestly, it's just too much now... moderating others is not a fun job, it's not enjoyable to have to enforce rules, I know that first hand, I am pretty much single-handedly blamed for every moderation action on this forum, whether I did it or not, so I get it. It's not fun to moderate your buddies, friends or people you play DCS with.

 

The issue is this. ED is not perfect, I am not perfect, ED tries to release and supply the best Flight Sim content it can while maintaining a viable business model that keeps the lights on and food in the tanks. I deal with the fires we create or ones that people feel are fires every single day. All I ever ask is that people do it in a mature and constructive manner. And I hoped for that at Hoggit... no not as strict, they don't have to play to any age group, they can have bad words, I get it, but if the comments are insulting, abusive, etc, and there is no sign of moderation, I'm sorry, I can't take the time to fight all those battles.

 

So what is this? This is me saying my presence on Hoggit is done for now. I did try, and you can't say that I didn't, I reported things I thought were bad, I answered the positive and negative. I stuck around when it was suggested I didn't have to. I hate giving up, I still feel more are good than bad there, but I just need to focus my energy elsewhere, where I feel it's not so wasted.

 

The last PM I got there was form a name/account I never saw there, so I can only assume it was a person who had another account or created another.

 

It simply said this:

 

SiThSpAwN, you are a piece of ****. With no redeeming qualities.

 

It's hard to keep going with that kind of feedback, yet I did for a number of months. For now, I am out, I continue to wish Hoggit growth and all the good eggs lots of flight simming fun, but for me, I need a break.

 

 

You do know you can set your profile to ONLY accept PM's from people you know ?

Tick only trusted users

 

https://www.reddit.com/prefs/blocked

[NineLine]

You do know you can set your profile to ONLY accept PM's from people you know ?

Tick only trusted users

 

https://www.reddit.com/prefs/blocked

 

I try and keep an open access point wherever I go, or else what's the point right? It was only an example, trying to point out I was trying.

[HC_Official]

the point is that if you are getting PM abuse and you can turn it off, then do that

you can still engage with people on the hoggit reddit and not get abuse from random people

[NineLine]

the point is that if you are getting PM abuse and you can turn it off, then do that

you can still engage with people on the hoggit reddit and not get abuse from random people

 

It was never just about PMs though. It was only an example. I am sure if you look hard enough, you can find more on your own. I am very available to people on Hoggit if they need to talk with me. It just wont be on Hoggit for now, and the foreseeable future.

[StandingCow]

It was never just about PMs though. It was only an example. I am sure if you look hard enough, you can find more on your own. I am very available to people on Hoggit if they need to talk with me. It just wont be on Hoggit for now, and the foreseeable future.

 

 

Disable PMs and report the posts you find to be out of line. You gotta let the mods do their job, or at least give them a chance. There is a reason even the forums here have a report button, you guys can't catch everything, and neither can they.

 

Sadly toxicity exists in every gaming forum nowdays as devs open themselves up on social media. It sucks but it comes with the "territory" as there are people out there that don't know how to control themselves when there is a computer screen instead of a person in front of them. The majority of hoggit users are civil and love DCS, but you have a very vocal minority that can be very loud and may not give constructive criticism or resort to personal attacks. It would be a shame if ED shut out this source of feedback which has 24.7k of your customers participating.

Edited May 22, 2019 by StandingCow

[Zilch]

It's a challenge as old as any niche hobby that becomes popular over time.

 

Remember when computers were new, and the only people who used them were enthusiasts who made the hobby better for no other reason than the love of the craft?

 

The trend is this.

 

The truly devoted spend resources trying to make a hobby better, more user friendly and/or attractive. This benefit attracts new followers, with maybe less love of the craft but they still appreciate what they have and contribute to make it better.

 

As the hobby gets better and barriers to entry drop, people join in. The newer folks may or may not appreciate the history of the hobby. They may even get a feeling of entitlement, expectations of how things should be, and since larger numbers bring increasing anonymity, behavior gets worse.

 

It has happened with video games. It has happened with PC's. It has happened with phones. It has happened in online communities. It may be happening here, too.

 

Unfortunately, with all the benefits to us and ED that MAC may bring, we all may face the reality that with increased popularity and ease of access also for increased risk of toxic behavior from people who have recently arrived to the community and may not appreciate the trials and work the older members went through to get the hobby in its current state.

 

MAC is a boon to the hobby, for sure. However, I'm worried that if it works and more people come on board, we may see more toxic behavior like this.

 

It's just a numbers game. We can have, I dunno, 50,000 members. If only one percent of them are toxic, that's 500 toxic people. They can do a lot of damage.

 

I'm not sure what to do about this. You can't put the genie back in the bottle. The community will only grow, and that's a good thing. It'll bring in more talent, interest and revenue for ED and the 3rd Parties to keep cranking out the product we love.

 

However, we need better ways to make sure our online haunts are civil, and I'm not what those may be.

[Supertaquito]

Easy solution for you, don't preorder or purchase until EA is over, but most of our customers want in on the journey of development.

 

 

I do purchase EA modules, lets get that out of the way. That's not a problem for me, but we have to get real. Your response was a little childish, you know if people actually followed your advise, you would lose over 70% of your income from modules.

 

Users would be stuck with a full fidelity A-10. The MiG-21, 17, F-5, WWII Warbirds and the Flaming Cliffs modules are the least popular to price ratio modules you guys have published.

 

Please don't talk to us like we are dumb. We buy your content, we buy your partners content. We are your clients, and we are paying for a service to be delivered and paying for respect from your guys.

 

There is a contract which is established when downloading the client, and purchasing modules, please don't violate it by choosing to run away from feedback and blocking or banning users who provide harsh critique. It is critique after all, and there will be times in which people who are not in your team will know more than what you guys know about a subject.

 

Perhaps if you guys dedicated all of your time into completing a module, or having your partners conditioned to complete a module by a specific ETA instead of pushing more and more EA modules where their completion dates keeps getting pushed to prioritize a fresher source of income you would also have much more respect from the communities which unfortunately also play into making or braking a company, ESPECIALLY when it comes to social media.

 

Thank you for all the fun you guys have provided to me personally with your modules. I can't wait to see the modules I've purchased get finished, but in the time being I am personally done with more purchases unless they are finished content.

[TraxusIV]

Indeed, certainly not an operationally valid loadout. However, after talking with the team yesterday, we'll probably allow it for those that want to be so inaccurate.

 

Thanks

 

Hurray!!!!!! I’m very excited about this! Any loadout that is physically possible I think usb useful to have available so that we can use it if we feel the situation warrants it. Just my opinion though. Thanks Matt!!