Question about TWS launches...

[Rex854Warrior]

Hello !

 

I was asking myself a couple of questions the other day that were not answered after a quick search in the manual.

First one is, will the AIM-54 receive guidance signals if the radar is switched from TWS auto to TWS man after launch ? And in the future would that switch mean that the RIO will loose the ability to make the missile go active ?

Second (well technically third :D) is, will guidance signals still be sent to the AIM-54 if the track was dropped then reacquired in TWS ? If it's not the case can you still command the missile to go active ?

Last one, can you go PD-STT after having launched a phoenix in TWS or after the track was lost then reacquired in TWS and still have it guide on target ?

 

That's it, all of these answered would sort out some confusion about what RIOs should do after launching a phoenix to make sure it gets delivered whatever might happen.

 

Cheers,

Rex.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Rex854Warrior

[Banzaiib]

If you switch radar modes, you lose the missile unless it's already gone active.

 

And TWS auto is not modeled, but when it is, the flight computer will put the radar in the TWS mode that is best suited and will allow you to crank left or right and still maintain radar contact (it'll slew the radar automatically).

Edited May 19, 2019 by Banzaiib

[QuiGon]

If you switch radar modes, you lose the missile unless it's already gone active.

In reality yes, but I don't think this is modeled in the DCS F-14 yet.

[OnlyforDCS]

and will allow you to crank left or right and still maintain radar contact (it'll slew the radar automatically).

 

Not sure that this is true. AFAIK auto mode optimises the radar cone for a contact's altitude, changing the azimuth angle while cranking still requires RIO inputs.

[Rex854Warrior]

Thank you.

So changing modes will make the host loose the missile(s) meaning it won't even be able to make them go active ok. Are you sure that's the case with PD-STT though ? Which can provide guidance to the 54, maybe only via Datalink instead of reflected energy and Datalink if STT is used at launch since the missile wouldn't have been setup for it.

That answers one of my questions.

 

If you switch radar modes, you lose the missile unless it's already gone active.

 

And TWS auto is not modeled, but when it is, the flight computer will put the radar in the TWS mode that is best suited and will allow you to crank left or right and still maintain radar contact (it'll slew the radar automatically).

 

I am very much looking forward to TWS Auto :).

Edited May 21, 2019 by Rex854Warrior

[MobiSev]

Thank you.

So changing modes will make the host loose the missile(s) meaning it won't even be able to make them go active ok. Are you sure that's the case with PD-STT though ? Which can provide guidance to the 54, maybe only via Datalink instead of reflected energy and Datalink if STT is used at launch since the missile wouldn't have been setup for it.

That answers one of my questions.

 

 

 

I am very much looking forward to TWS Auto :).

 

 

I think, at least in my experience, as long as the target is still in the tracking cone, if you switch from auto to manual, the missile should still track to the target.

 

Losing lock is different however. As of right now, upon losing TWS tracking either through changing modes, etc., ALL 54 models will leave their lofting trajectory, go active immediately, and kill the first thing they see. I see a lot of team kills because of this lol. The only difference right now is that the A models have smoke trails with the 60 having a better motor and the C being smokeless. The missile code will change though when HB is given permission to change it.

Edited May 21, 2019 by MobiSev

[Rex854Warrior]

Perhaps a dev or someone with documentation could kindly shed some light on these questions.

I can rephrase them if something isn't clear.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Rex854Warrior

[Karon]

It's very easy:the WCS pushes TWS Auto right after firing an AIM-54. What they RIO can do now is having the pilot manoeuvre in order to have the target at 12' same level, fire than push TWS Man and tell the pilot to start cranking.

 

It works every the time as long as the pilot cooperates. I have plenty of examples in my streams on my youtube channel.

[Rex854Warrior]

It's very easy:the WCS pushes TWS Auto right after firing an AIM-54. What they RIO can do now is having the pilot manoeuvre in order to have the target at 12' same level, fire than push TWS Man and tell the pilot to start cranking.

 

It works every the time as long as the pilot cooperates. I have plenty of examples in my streams on my youtube channel.

 

Thank you, but that doesn't really answer my questions ^^. I'm more after the how it should be rather then how it is.

[Rex854Warrior]

I'll reformulate :

 

Is it possible in the real airframe to switch from TWS Auto to TWS Man or PD-STT while guiding a phoenix and not loose guidance ? Currently in game, it seems like you keep it.

 

While guiding a phoenix, will loosing a track in TWS Auto then reacquiring it almost immediatly trash the missile ? Didn't test that too much in game but it seems that when this happens the missile leaves Loft and goes straight for the target.

 

Does launching in PD-STT mean the phoenix will use SARH all the way to the target and NEVER go active even if you command it to and/or if the lock is lost ?

 

Lastly,

What is required for a missile to be commanded active ? Can you command a missile to go active even if you've lost the target ?

Edited May 31, 2019 by Rex854Warrior

[Karon]

I was answering the the previous posts mate :)

 

 

About your second question, the manual states that it's possible to switch between TWS and STT although it's less "safe" than using the DDD. TWS Auto to Man instead, no issues, it's just a matter of who controls the TWS mode I guess.

 

 

I haven't tried to push TWS to STT while a launch is going though. Also, the AIM-54 AFAIK behaves as an AIM-120 now (if it hasn't been patched yet). IRL is the WCS that tells it to become active.

 

 

To get a more comprehensive answer, the easiest solution is testing.

[MobiSev]

I'll reformulate :

 

Is it possible in the real airframe to switch from TWS Auto to TWS Man or PD-STT while guiding a phoenix and not loose guidance ? Currently in game, it seems like you keep it.

 

While guiding a phoenix, will loosing a track in TWS Auto then reacquiring it almost immediatly trash the missile ?

 

First part: I think it should be the same in the real airframe (at least it doesn't make sense otherwise). I think the only thing that's different between the two tws modes is who is controlling the tracking cone. It's still in TWS. It's just that the computer is controlling auto and the RIO is controlling manual. If you swap from auto to manual, as long as the RIO keeps the target in the cone, it does not make sense that you would lose guidance. Haven't heard anything about swapping from tws to PD-STT in the real airframe though.

 

Second part: With the real 54, yes, I think the A models will be trashed as soon as tracking is lost before it goes pitbull. The C model, however, will continue to an intercept point and go pitbull 5 or so miles from that point. I don't think reacquiring TWS tracking will change these behaviors. It happens as soon as TWS is lost on a target.

 

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong lol. I'm just going off what others have told me.

Edited May 31, 2019 by MobiSev

[Rex854Warrior]

I was answering the the previous posts mate :)

 

 

About your second question, the manual states that it's possible to switch between TWS and STT although it's less "safe" than using the DDD. TWS Auto to Man instead, no issues, it's just a matter of who controls the TWS mode I guess.

 

 

I haven't tried to push TWS to STT while a launch is going though. Also, the AIM-54 AFAIK behaves as an AIM-120 now (if it hasn't been patched yet). IRL is the WCS that tells it to become active.

 

 

To get a more comprehensive answer, the easiest solution is testing.

 

I was more worried about phoenix guidance when switching from TWS to STT or TWS Auto to TWS Man.

 

Also, I have done testing, I know what to expect in game from the phoenix and what happens when I switch modes. My questions are aimed strictly at real airframe capabilities, which are very different from the ones of the module in this area right now. Makes testing in game rather unhelpful.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Rex854Warrior

[Rex854Warrior]

First part: I think it should be the same in the real airframe (at least it doesn't make sense otherwise). I think the only thing that's different between the two tws modes is who is controlling the tracking cone. It's still in TWS. It's just that the computer is controlling auto and the RIO is controlling manual. If you swap from auto to manual, as long as the RIO keeps the target in the cone, it does not make sense that you would lose guidance. Haven't heard anything about swapping from tws to PD-STT in the real airframe though.

 

Second part: With the real 54, yes, I think the A models will be trashed as soon as tracking is lost before it goes pitbull. The C model, however, will continue to an intercept point and go pitbull 5 or so miles from that point. I don't think reacquiring TWS tracking will change these behaviors. It happens as soon as TWS is lost on a target.

 

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong lol. I'm just going off what others have told me.

 

Thank you. You answered part of the second question you quoted, do you know if that intercept point keeps being updated even after the host radar lost the track periodically ?

[MobiSev]

I'll reformulate :

Does launching in PD-STT mean the phoenix will use SARH all the way to the target and NEVER go active even if you command it to and/or if the lock is lost ?

 

Thank you. You answered part of the second question you quoted, do you know if that intercept point keeps being updated even after the host radar lost the track periodically ?

 

1. If you STT launch with a 54, you are essentially launching a glorified fox 1. It does not matter if it's an A or a C. I don't know about commanding it active, but if you lose lock once launched in STT, the missile will go stupid....at least that's how it should be lol. Right now, I think they just go active upon losing lock. This will change in the future though.

 

2. No, once the host radar loses track, the connection should be severed. The A models, since they have analogue tracking, do not have the capability to store the target's last known characteristics to calculate an intercept point. They should go stupid. The C's do have this ability with their digital tracking. Once the connection between host and missile is severed, the C will store the target's last known heading, alt, speed, etc. and fly to the point it should be near based on these characteristics. Keep in mind though that the C variant does not go active until it get's close, so it wouldn't be able to update the intercept point as it would have no way of knowing where the target is until it goes pitbull (that is, if the target didnt change directions before this point lol).

[Rex854Warrior]

1. If you STT launch with a 54, you are essentially launching a glorified fox 1. It does not matter if it's an A or a C. I don't know about commanding it active, but if you lose lock once launched in STT, the missile will go stupid....at least that's how it should be lol. Right now, I think they just go active upon losing lock. This will change in the future though.

 

2. No, once the host radar loses track, the connection should be severed. The A models, since they have analogue tracking, do not have the capability to store the target's last known characteristics to calculate an intercept point. They should go stupid. The C's do have this ability with their digital tracking. Once the connection between host and missile is severed, the C will store the target's last known heading, alt, speed, etc. and fly to the point it should be near based on these characteristics. Keep in mind though that the C variant does not go active until it get's close, so it wouldn't be able to update the intercept point as it would have no way of knowing where the target is until it goes pitbull (that is, if the target didnt change directions before this point lol).

 

My RIO told me it would keep receiving guidance corrections if the target was lost then reacquired after a couple of seconds, glad you got that out of the way, thanks. Although I'm not sure it does that in DCS, I'd have to check.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Rex854Warrior

[MobiSev]

My RIO told me it would keep receiving guidance corrections if the target was lost then reacquired after a couple of seconds, glad I got that out of the way, thanks. Although I'm not sure it does that in DCS, I'd have to check.

 

Well, it might be that way now, but once the missiles get updated by Heatblur, it shouldn't do that I don't think.