Tomcat Pilot Radar controls

[Jabbers_]

To all who are saying this shouldnt be allowed, how much of these capabilities using reach through control have you tried? Any experience with it in single or multiplayer? Or just assumptions on how it adversely affects gameplay?

 

It just really speeds up what should be a 2 man operation, but probably not much more or the same as a really good Pilot/RIO combo so not a big deal really, but def not how the module was intended to be played.

[draconus]

To all who are saying this shouldnt be allowed, how much of these capabilities using reach through control have you tried? Any experience with it in single or multiplayer? Or just assumptions on how it adversely affects gameplay?

 

That's the point - we don't use it because we don't want it available in the sim! It's like asking for game mode in MP and when someone is against it, asking him if he even uses it to see how it affects the play.

 

In esport terms think of korean level and what people can do if only they get their hands on it.

Edited September 18, 2019 by draconus

[Dino Might]

That's the point - we don't use it because we don't want it available in the sim! It's like asking for game mode in MP and when someone is against it, asking him if he even uses it to see how it affects the play.

 

In esport terms think of korean level and what people can do if only they get their hands on it.

 

 

Pretty outrageous comparison.

Anyone flying any of the helicopters other than Ka50 is doing the exact same thing, and FC3 planes are far worse offenders in terms of "game mode" features.

 

 

So without any knowledge of how it works, you are passing judgement comparing it to exploitive "esports" practices in arcade games. Give me a bleepin' break.

[Dino Might]

It just really speeds up what should be a 2 man operation, but probably not much more or the same as a really good Pilot/RIO combo so not a big deal really, but def not how the module was intended to be played.

 

 

Using Jester with voice attack is much easier. I personally dont use this mod, having tried it and realized it's just more difficult to deal with than the current setup, but I see it being useful without voice attack.

 

 

Two man crew will be much more effective, assuming comparable skill levels in the 1 w/ mid vs 2.

[Jabbers_]

Using Jester with voice attack is much easier. I personally dont use this mod, having tried it and realized it's just more difficult to deal with than the current setup, but I see it being useful without voice attack.

 

 

Two man crew will be much more effective, assuming comparable skill levels in the 1 w/ mid vs 2.

 

Agree to disagree on the voice thing

[QuiGon]

@Dino Might

I totally agree with you that there are other things in DCS that are pretty unrealistic too and I would love to see them getting changed/removed as well (especially those arcadey FC3 aircraft). And then there are things that just have to be unrealistic as there is no other applicable way to handle it (e.g. deaths and respawns).

 

But this thread here is about the LANTIRN cheat, that allows you to do things as a pilot that a real life pilot couldn't do. That would be ok if there is no other way, but once Jester gets the ability to use the LANTIRN I really don't see any reason for this cheat to stay around.

Edited September 19, 2019 by QuiGon

[IronMike]

Comme ci, comme ca, guys, both sides are totally legitimate viewpoints imo that have no problem coexisting.

 

However, when we speak of realism, it is a double edged sword in simming: it is what we all aspire, yet it does not exist. Bare with me for a sec: We are limited by not doing what we actually do. We sit in front of a computer and we do not fly an aircraft, we fulfill a mission, yet we do not get payed and so on... Hence: waiting 2 weeks for your aircraft to be repaired, or half a day for an engine to get swapped, is, you know, senseless. But, what we actually aspire, when we say "realism", is imo an honest and true to life depiction of whatever we simulate as best as we can. It becomes virtual reality - which can be anything, in this case we want it to be a sim though.

 

So now we have to make choices: a double seater in Singleplayer simply cannot be real, it is an oxymoron. Yet, we want it to be true to life, to be an honest representation of its real counterpart. So we chose to create Jester. In our opinion this is how we could approach reality within the sim the closest. Imagine going down another path (why not?), say, simply giving the pilot a simplified reach back function that lets him do almost everything the RIO does. It sure would have been possible in a way. But it would not convey what the Tomcat as a 2 seater was all about, as much as the option to create Jester did (and imagine at what loss you would have been in MP against a real 2 seater).

 

This is why we decide not to allow a reach back ability in the long shot. Not because we do not want to offer (sometimes much needed!) aids to the player - we actually do offer some. But we do not want to break the immersion that in a Tomcat as a pilot you are exactly that, and as a RIO you are this, and the combination of both makes a team, even in Singleplayer. That is the character of the Tomcat we want you to experience. Else we could not claim that we are dedicated towards realism. Yes, it does not really exist, but if it is not the example you work towards, you do not do justice to the genre of a full fidelity sim.

 

And finally, a pilot who has to manage lantirn on his own, ofc is at a disadvantage. So this is not even a point of consideration - is it a cheat or not. (it's not.) Atm it is a tool to make it work, while else it does not work at all. Thus it makes sense to allow it for now.

 

If you feel that you are limited in your abilities to work with Jester (we are ofc aware of several limits), please let us know. The goal, as mentioned, is to rather help Jester help you, than be dependent on stuff that bypasses him. I hope that makes sense. :)

[vadupleix]

Comme ci, comme ca, guys, both sides are totally legitimate viewpoints imo that have no problem coexisting.

 

However, when we speak of realism, it is a double edged sword in simming: it is what we all aspire, yet it does not exist. Bare with me for a sec: We are limited by not doing what we actually do. We sit in front of a computer and we do not fly an aircraft, we fulfill a mission, yet we do not get payed and so on... Hence: waiting 2 weeks for your aircraft to be repaired, or half a day for an engine to get swapped, is, you know, senseless. But, what we actually aspire, when we say "realism", is imo an honest and true to life depiction of whatever we simulate as best as we can. It becomes virtual reality - which can be anything, in this case we want it to be a sim though.

 

So now we have to make choices: a double seater in Singleplayer simply cannot be real, it is an oxymoron. Yet, we want it to be true to life, to be an honest representation of its real counterpart. So we chose to create Jester. In our opinion this is how we could approach reality within the sim the closest. Imagine going down another path (why not?), say, simply giving the pilot a simplified reach back function that lets him do almost everything the RIO does. It sure would have been possible in a way. But it would not convey what the Tomcat as a 2 seater was all about, as much as the option to create Jester did (and imagine at what loss you would have been in MP against a real 2 seater).

 

This is why we decide not to allow a reach back ability in the long shot. Not because we do not want to offer (sometimes much needed!) aids to the player - we actually do offer some. But we do not want to break the immersion that in a Tomcat as a pilot you are exactly that, and as a RIO you are this, and the combination of both makes a team, even in Singleplayer. That is the character of the Tomcat we want you to experience. Else we could not claim that we are dedicated towards realism. Yes, it does not really exist, but if it is not the example you work towards, you do not do justice to the genre of a full fidelity sim.

 

And finally, a pilot who has to manage lantirn on his own, ofc is at a disadvantage. So this is not even a point of consideration - is it a cheat or not. (it's not.) Atm it is a tool to make it work, while else it does not work at all. Thus it makes sense to allow it for now.

 

If you feel that you are limited in your abilities to work with Jester (we are ofc aware of several limits), please let us know. The goal, as mentioned, is to rather help Jester help you, than be dependent on stuff that bypasses him. I hope that makes sense. :)

 

Thanks for the explanation! I’m wondering what’s your take on Jesters ability. That is, if possible, will you be willing to make Jester as capable as a VERY SKILLED human RIO (for example, when manipulating radars) or will you consider “multiplayer fairness” when implementing such features?

[QuiGon]

Comme ci, comme ca, guys, both sides are totally legitimate viewpoints imo that have no problem coexisting.

 

However, when we speak of realism, it is a double edged sword in simming: it is what we all aspire, yet it does not exist. Bare with me for a sec: We are limited by not doing what we actually do. We sit in front of a computer and we do not fly an aircraft, we fulfill a mission, yet we do not get payed and so on... Hence: waiting 2 weeks for your aircraft to be repaired, or half a day for an engine to get swapped, is, you know, senseless. But, what we actually aspire, when we say "realism", is imo an honest and true to life depiction of whatever we simulate as best as we can. It becomes virtual reality - which can be anything, in this case we want it to be a sim though.

 

So now we have to make choices: a double seater in Singleplayer simply cannot be real, it is an oxymoron. Yet, we want it to be true to life, to be an honest representation of its real counterpart. So we chose to create Jester. In our opinion this is how we could approach reality within the sim the closest. Imagine going down another path (why not?), say, simply giving the pilot a simplified reach back function that lets him do almost everything the RIO does. It sure would have been possible in a way. But it would not convey what the Tomcat as a 2 seater was all about, as much as the option to create Jester did (and imagine at what loss you would have been in MP against a real 2 seater).

 

This is why we decide not to allow a reach back ability in the long shot. Not because we do not want to offer (sometimes much needed!) aids to the player - we actually do offer some. But we do not want to break the immersion that in a Tomcat as a pilot you are exactly that, and as a RIO you are this, and the combination of both makes a team, even in Singleplayer. That is the character of the Tomcat we want you to experience. Else we could not claim that we are dedicated towards realism. Yes, it does not really exist, but if it is not the example you work towards, you do not do justice to the genre of a full fidelity sim.

 

And finally, a pilot who has to manage lantirn on his own, ofc is at a disadvantage. So this is not even a point of consideration - is it a cheat or not. (it's not.) Atm it is a tool to make it work, while else it does not work at all. Thus it makes sense to allow it for now.

 

If you feel that you are limited in your abilities to work with Jester (we are ofc aware of several limits), please let us know. The goal, as mentioned, is to rather help Jester help you, than be dependent on stuff that bypasses him. I hope that makes sense. :)

Thanks, couldn't have said it any better! :thumbup:

[Dino Might]

@IronMike and the HB team - I appreciate the perspectives and the decisions you have/will make. At the end of the day, I don't think I've ever liked playing anything more than I do the DCS F-14.

 

 

 

I think Jester is top notch. Yes, quite limited, but such a far cry from the older AI helpers I have seen in other digital venues. That you are continuing to improve him is remarkable, admirable, and necessary at the same time.

 

 

Know that any of my dissatisfaction pales in comparison with my enjoyment of this module.

 

 

If there's one thing I could ask - if it does end up such that there are certain things that can only be done well with two people, could you please pen a letter to Mrs. Dino confirming my continued affirmations that it is indeed the best use of her time to learn how to RIO? SME input is always appreciated.

[IronMike]

You can get that letter, with the official company header, if you like. How much it will help though, is questionable. But convince her you should. Just tell her this: in the F-14, the RIO is the boss. :D

[IronMike]

Thanks for the explanation! I’m wondering what’s your take on Jesters ability. That is, if possible, will you be willing to make Jester as capable as a VERY SKILLED human RIO (for example, when manipulating radars) or will you consider “multiplayer fairness” when implementing such features?

 

 

I think the limits that come with the game, will never let him be close to anything an experienced human rio would be. some things I guess just won't be possible. So when we say improve, we need to also manage expectations of course. We'll do what we can, and tws auto already will help a lot once it is done. But we'll stay at it, most gaps will become obvious once tws auto works.

[vadupleix]

I think the limits that come with the game, will never let him be close to anything an experienced human rio would be. some things I guess just won't be possible. So when we say improve, we need to also manage expectations of course. We'll do what we can, and tws auto already will help a lot once it is done. But we'll stay at it, most gaps will become obvious once tws auto works.

 

Thanks again! Looking forward to TWS auto.

[captain_dalan]

Agree to disagree on the voice thing

What's your take on using voice attack?

I've been on the fence for trying it. On one hand, i only seldom do BVR, so i don't get to go much deeper then one Jester sub-menu deep. On the other hand, one of these days (or even years), missile dynamics will be sorted out, Jester will get feature complete, and i will have too delve deeper than that.

Do you think VA is clunkier then the radial? And aside from a human RIO, what would you recommend as the most optimal back seat solution?

 

Comme ci, comme ca, guys, both sides are totally legitimate viewpoints imo that have no problem coexisting.

 

However, when we speak of realism, it is a double edged sword in simming: it is what we all aspire, yet it does not exist. Bare with me for a sec: We are limited by not doing what we actually do. We sit in front of a computer and we do not fly an aircraft, we fulfill a mission, yet we do not get payed and so on... Hence: waiting 2 weeks for your aircraft to be repaired, or half a day for an engine to get swapped, is, you know, senseless. But, what we actually aspire, when we say "realism", is imo an honest and true to life depiction of whatever we simulate as best as we can. It becomes virtual reality - which can be anything, in this case we want it to be a sim though.

 

Amen to that. I think people often confuse authenticity to realism. Especially the cockpit flyer crowd :thumbup:

Edited September 20, 2019 by captain_dalan

[Dino Might]

Jester without voice attack is clunky menu navigating. Jester with voice attack (with a good profile) is a proper stand in for a human counterpart. Not as good, but definitely closes the gap considerably.

 

 

It took me 20 minutes to set everything up. Just make sure all of your commands start with *jester menu command* twice. That drives it from the contextual to the main menu every time, so that your command will never be messed up based on variation in what contextual menu is active.

 

 

I'm disappointed I waited until this month to set up voice attack. It makes a world of difference.

[captain_dalan]

Jester without voice attack is clunky menu navigating. Jester with voice attack (with a good profile) is a proper stand in for a human counterpart. Not as good, but definitely closes the gap considerably.

 

 

It took me 20 minutes to set everything up. Just make sure all of your commands start with *jester menu command* twice. That drives it from the contextual to the main menu every time, so that your command will never be messed up based on variation in what contextual menu is active.

 

 

I'm disappointed I waited until this month to set up voice attack. It makes a world of difference.

 

I appreciate the input.:thumbup: Would love to read to as many people's impressions and opinions as possible, so if you tried/worked with VA feel free to share!

[tekrc]

personally I like the idea of voice attack in this case. my current complaint is theres still the issue of being blinded by the menu when I use it. but given there are only a few direct button assignable jester commands and stt lock (being the important one I think) isn't one of them, I compromise here. but that's actually all I use it for is the stt lock command. other stuff I can live with the menu since unless in wvr there's time to use the menu. and if in wvr, you can use acm modes to lock. plus I'm on the free version of va being limited to 20 commands. but its in no way a replacement for a person who can react way faster and have a better idea of what you actually want them to do. plus can do stuff like change the scan area on their own which is a bit clunky with jester on a good day. the new ability to tell him to search altitude at a range is nice but is something he should be doing on his own when there are datalink contacts I think.like he iff's on his own. now he just needs to search on his own

[S. Low]

Comme ci, comme ca, guys, both sides are totally legitimate viewpoints imo that have no problem coexisting.

 

However, when we speak of realism, it is a double edged sword in simming: it is what we all aspire, yet it does not exist. Bare with me for a sec: We are limited by not doing what we actually do. We sit in front of a computer and we do not fly an aircraft, we fulfill a mission, yet we do not get payed and so on... Hence: waiting 2 weeks for your aircraft to be repaired, or half a day for an engine to get swapped, is, you know, senseless. But, what we actually aspire, when we say "realism", is imo an honest and true to life depiction of whatever we simulate as best as we can. It becomes virtual reality - which can be anything, in this case we want it to be a sim though.

 

So now we have to make choices: a double seater in Singleplayer simply cannot be real, it is an oxymoron. Yet, we want it to be true to life, to be an honest representation of its real counterpart. So we chose to create Jester. In our opinion this is how we could approach reality within the sim the closest. Imagine going down another path (why not?), say, simply giving the pilot a simplified reach back function that lets him do almost everything the RIO does. It sure would have been possible in a way. But it would not convey what the Tomcat as a 2 seater was all about, as much as the option to create Jester did (and imagine at what loss you would have been in MP against a real 2 seater).

 

This is why we decide not to allow a reach back ability in the long shot. Not because we do not want to offer (sometimes much needed!) aids to the player - we actually do offer some. But we do not want to break the immersion that in a Tomcat as a pilot you are exactly that, and as a RIO you are this, and the combination of both makes a team, even in Singleplayer. That is the character of the Tomcat we want you to experience. Else we could not claim that we are dedicated towards realism. Yes, it does not really exist, but if it is not the example you work towards, you do not do justice to the genre of a full fidelity sim.

 

And finally, a pilot who has to manage lantirn on his own, ofc is at a disadvantage. So this is not even a point of consideration - is it a cheat or not. (it's not.) Atm it is a tool to make it work, while else it does not work at all. Thus it makes sense to allow it for now.

 

If you feel that you are limited in your abilities to work with Jester (we are ofc aware of several limits), please let us know. The goal, as mentioned, is to rather help Jester help you, than be dependent on stuff that bypasses him. I hope that makes sense. :)

 

This is a fantastic answer and I agree completely. I spent many years playing, testing, and providing feedback etc on apache mods for arma 2 and 3. In my head I thought of sims as "realism in context," but I think you describe it better in that you need to bring to life the "character" of the tomcat, and I think you succeeded.

 

Commanding jester to set custom waypoints, cycle through radar modes, change radio channels or set new ones, set cms programs, all while I manage flight has been a really great experience and it's the dream I always had when working on arma apaches. I wanted to have full control of the aircraft in singleplayer, whether that was through direct control or commands. And the arma commands were very limited. The tomcat got it done to a degree I've never seen before and I'm loving every second of it. Especially when I land hard and jester gives me shit about it, or if I miss the refuel basket and he asks me if I need him to reach out and grab it :/

 

Understanding that a 2 seat aircraft should not be gated to only multi crew is one of the best aspects of your design philosophy

[USA_Recon]

On 4/10/2019 at 6:15 PM, Halcyon said:

 

I have no problem with that, but right now he doesn't have the ability, so it shouldn't be locked out yet, which is what the other poster was suggesting should happen.

 

 

 

If there was a real person in my RIO seat I would agree with you.

 

Jester is just an interface to the code, and me pushing a button versus me choosing a radial command (one that doesn't exist for changing the range on the TID) is exactly the same thing.

 

I have to agree with this statement.   What is difference of using an annoying wheel ui approach to press a button to tell him, vs. binding a button to same command to avoid the clunky interface (I mean, for what it does the interface was a nice attempt, but has serious shortcomings).   Speech is much faster than the wheel.   So again having button controls SHOULD be an option over the incompetent Jester

On 9/26/2019 at 8:42 AM, Relic said:

 

This is why we decide not to allow a reach back ability in the long shot. Not because we do not want to offer (sometimes much needed!) aids to the player - we actually do offer some. But we do not want to break the immersion that in a Tomcat as a pilot you are exactly that, and as a RIO you are this, and the combination of both makes a team, even in Singleplayer. That is the character of the Tomcat we want you to experience. Else we could not claim that we are dedicated towards realism. Yes, it does not really exist, but if it is not the example you work towards, you do not do justice to the genre of a full fidelity sim.

As fancy as that all sounds, the reality is - you can sit there an spin a fake wheel implementation over and over again, which tries to replace speech - which is not realistic whatsoever, and ruins immersion, or you just enable controls .   There is literally no difference, one just forces you to use a very clunky wheel interface.    I think it's perfectly fine to be able to control it from the front seat as an alternative to needing a fake Jester AI wheel interface.

Edited January 7, 2021 by USA_Recon

[DD_Fenrir]

3 minutes ago, USA_Recon said:

 

I have to agree with this statement.   What is difference of using an annoying wheel ui approach to press a button to tell him, vs. binding a button to same command to avoid the clunky interface (I mean, for what it does the interface was a nice attempt, but has serious shortcomings).   Speech is much faster than the wheel.   So again having button controls SHOULD be an option over the incompetent Jester

 

Way to go. Motivational speaking at it's finest.

 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by DD_Fenrir

[USA_Recon]

1 minute ago, DD_Fenrir said:

 

Way to go. Motivational speaking at it's finest.

 

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I see, you enjoy spinning around a fake jester wheel and are critical of those that don't see much of a difference of pressing 3 buttons to bring up a menu, slider it around (and in VR its a PITA), vs. just being able to select a single button .    We have quite a few dreamers around here - guess I'm just a practical person

[USA_Recon]

To be clear, I'm not talking about LANTIRN, I'm talking about needing to constantly use a wheel to tell Jester how to scan.   Honestly if he did his job properly in the first place, i wouldn't need to spin the wheel all around just to get him to understand, ie. we have a low datalink contact ahead, target it - vs. 'unable' etc.. that BS far outweighs this 'spin the wheel around' approach.   If it means I can press a button to low radar range so be it.   Reality is, I shouldn't be commanding a RIO to do his job in the first place.

 

So the 'realism' folks are keeping a blind eye on the gaminess of the jester in the first place.   It's 'neat' and all, but exposes the complete incompetence of the 'Jester'.   Let alone his call outs that are always delayed and rather silly (by the time he says 'contact on your 3 oclock', the bandit is on your six, or telling you about something far away when you have an immediate threat).   

 

[Mr. Big.Biggs]

I think you have to be all in or all out.  If the idea is to allow some “pass thru” features for a two man crew, then you should allow jester, or bindings for ALL requested features wanted by the purchaser. As long as it is something that a 2 person crew can do legitimately. 
On the other hand. If you’re not allowing “some” options then you should allow NO options. Ie if I go to the back, no one controls the F14 flight unless autopilot is set, or if I go back to “gun” the huey spins helplessly out of control.  THERE is your friggen realism. Get rid of easy coms, get rid of Jester , get rid of the animations on the super carrier and require a crew of players to launch you on the carrier. 
THEN PUT A BIG NOTE ON THE WEB SITE SAYING “DON’T BUT THIS MODULE IF YOU DON’T HAVE BUDDIES” so people don’t pay full price for  the half complete experience crap. 
Of course that won’t happen because the company wants your money and the “I’m a real pretend pilot and your a lousy simmer” crowd couldn’t continue to profit  or display  their  “I’m superior attitudes “ respectively. 
People just need to drop the idea that this game, however realistic, won’t ever make you a real pilot  and will ALWAYS be a compromise, period! Don’t make it an arcade but pick a realistic and practical line in the sand will ya!!!  
 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Mr. Big.Biggs

[DD_Fenrir]

1 hour ago, USA_Recon said:

I see, you enjoy spinning around a fake jester wheel and are critical of those that don't see much of a difference of pressing 3 buttons to bring up a menu, slider it around (and in VR its a PITA), vs. just being able to select a single button .    We have quite a few dreamers around here - guess I'm just a practical person

 

I have no particular stance on the issue - I see both sides of the argument and my personal feelings are that sometimes it's useful but at others it can be clunky.

 

The content of my post directly addresses the manner in which you choose to berate, insult and belittle the work of some of the hardest working, communicative and considerate devs in this community and then have the temerity to expect something to change in your favour. 

Edited January 7, 2021 by DD_Fenrir

[Legioneod]

6 hours ago, USA_Recon said:

To be clear, I'm not talking about LANTIRN, I'm talking about needing to constantly use a wheel to tell Jester how to scan.   Honestly if he did his job properly in the first place, i wouldn't need to spin the wheel all around just to get him to understand, ie. we have a low datalink contact ahead, target it - vs. 'unable' etc.. that BS far outweighs this 'spin the wheel around' approach.   If it means I can press a button to low radar range so be it.   Reality is, I shouldn't be commanding a RIO to do his job in the first place.

 

So the 'realism' folks are keeping a blind eye on the gaminess of the jester in the first place.   It's 'neat' and all, but exposes the complete incompetence of the 'Jester'.   Let alone his call outs that are always delayed and rather silly (by the time he says 'contact on your 3 oclock', the bandit is on your six, or telling you about something far away when you have an immediate threat).   

 

I recently got back into the F-14 and Jester is the only thing that keeps me from enjoying it 100%. If I have to do the RIOs job for him that kinda ruins the experience but I would much rather have easier/quicker control of the radar than having to go through a bunch of menus. If jester was more autonomous/smart with the radar I wouldn't have much of a problem because then I really wouldn't need to tell him anything at all. 

 

I think they made jester a bit too dumb (maybe dumb isnt the right word, a bit too reliant on the player is better I think). I understand they didn't want to make him unrealistic or "op"/unfair but really he should be more autonomous  without me having to tell him every little thing. Maybe I just don't know how to use jester properly (I'm still rather new to the F-14) but from my limited experience a human RIO is far more efficient due to them knowing the radar and working it autonomically/more effectively.