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The key to zhe Gazelle


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That's fun, that's the way it should be, and the Gazelle behaves like a Formula One car in the air.

 

There are many different opinions about the flight model, and we may argue about how realistic it is, or not.

But the main question is how can I fly this thing in DCS. And have fun with it.

 

 

Always happy landings ;)

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Personally I run with

- A manual "curve", though rather than a curve it's two lines. The first one covers the first 70% of stick deflection at 70% saturation, and then last covers the remaining 30% with whichever degree of linear saturation that gets it to 100% coverage. Gives you control as well as full deflection (which, frankly, you only use for extreme situations anyways), but still good to have.

 

- FFB off. Sucks bigtime, I'm running a FFB stick, but having it on breaks the FM bigtime. It was announced that FFB wouldn't be developed any further, but at this point it's still not really working. The FFB curve options are useless since saturation works far better.

 

- For true glory, after disabling FFB you can still run SimFFB in the background, with maximum damper forces, and about 30% spring effect (just enough to keep it from going slack, but not re-center itself). That gives you truly fine control and only then does it feel like it's truly controllable. Does the cyclic even re-center in real life (except for force trim) ?

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Does the cyclic even re-center in real life (except for force trim) ?

 

There is no center position in real life. Because the Center ( hover point) varies due to different loads from flight to flight and during the flight because of fuel consumption.

 

The video is a general recommendation to all they have trouble with controlling the Gazelle and stopped flying or never have given her a try because of the "bad reporting" concerning the flight model.

 

Depending on your Joy Stick or control device there are many ways to adapt. But it needs time and patience to find the perfect adjustments.

 

Thanks for sharing your experience :thumbup:

Always happy landings ;)

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I've found that the CH Fighterstick is pretty much ideal for Gazelle, light and accurate. I fly with it without any curve adjustments.

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You need to build a cyclic interface,.. :D

 

Gazelle feels okay as far as input goes, it seems the "same" as Huey and Mi-8, for me whats missing is required deflection of cyclic to counter parasitic drag or blowback/blowforward CG but that's just my opinion. The cyclic is simply centric.

 

Reducing saturation helped me initially but placing the cyclic between my legs and having an extension made it work for me.

 

Try rolling and looping,.. link to short vid.:thumbup:

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Honestly out of all the helo's the GAZ is the easiest for me to fly/land and I'm not really good with helos.

New hotness: I7 9700k 4.8ghz, 32gb ddr4, 2080ti, :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, HP Reverb (formermly CV1)

Old-N-busted: i7 4720HQ ~3.5GHZ, +32GB DDR3 + Nvidia GTX980m (4GB VRAM) :joystick: TM Warthog. TrackIR, Rift CV1 (yes really).

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I hope you bring out some more informative videos. I personally appreciate your videos very much! And even more I would be happy if you could bring out for the module Mi-8 also such helpful videos.

 

kannschd au ruhich uf schwäbisch schwätza :thumbup:

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DCS World needs the Panavia Tornado! Really!

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I've found that the CH Fighterstick is pretty much ideal for Gazelle, light and accurate. I fly with it without any curve adjustments.

 

 

I had to add curves, but yes, because the center spring is so light I absolutely love my CH Fighterstick for Gazelle and Huey. It makes me feel good when I see people with Warthogs or ProFlight Puma controls that can't fly Huey as well as me, even though my controls are 8 years old, and the tech is even older than that!!!

 

For mine I run 22 curve and 80% on the Y axis. Seems to fly fairly nice for me. I am gonna try the suggested 40-50% Y axis/no curve and see how it flies.

 

~Rob

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Honestly out of all the helo's the GAZ is the easiest for me to fly/land and I'm not really good with helos.

 

You are not the only one telling me, that the Gazelle is the easiest to handle helicopter in DCS.

That's first of all great for you.

 

I have not a good, or any, explanation while so many different Pilots, made so many different experiences in controlling the Gazelle.

 

From a technical and physically point of view, the Gazelle should be the most ambitious to control helicopter in DCS. :joystick:

 

For any others, they have problems with the Gazelle; the change in Y-Axis may be a safe and fast solution for a new trial.

 

It's not the best and not the last conclusion. So after many flight hours personally changed the Y-axis adjustments to 50%.

Always happy landings ;)

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I hope you bring out some more informative videos. I personally appreciate your videos very much! And even more I would be happy if you could bring out for the module Mi-8 also such helpful videos.

 

kannschd au ruhich uf schwäbisch schwätza :thumbup:

 

"Dangschee"

 

Because in the Ugly Angel Squad we start training in the Mi-8 in the coming weeks or months, it will be not unlikely that there are also some Mi-8 Videos produced in 2019.

 

"gugsch halt emo mol wido rei"

Always happy landings ;)

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it will be not unlikely that there are also some Mi-8 Videos produced in 2019.

 

 

:thumbup:

**************************************

DCS World needs the Panavia Tornado! Really!

**************************************

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@CHPL

 

For me some of the problems most people have is the control of the Gazelle using a table mounted joystick with centering, as you know the Gazelles cyclic is very sensitive and centric in is operation. So a lot of the fine control occurs in the center range of the joystick with all the associated forces to overcome.

 

Using a table mounted joystick was for me very difficult as by time you overcome the mechanical center detent, you have likely over corrected and thus start Pilot Induced Oscillation in this situation use of saturation and some form of support for the wrist really helped but it's not ideal.

 

For most people I think it's this initial experience that sets the user experience for some people and hence maybe they pick up on "The Flight Model" arguments and use this as their rationale, incorrectly implying "if I can't control the Gazelle" it must be the flight model and not the input controls.

 

Also keep in mind the current flight model is so much better then it was when it first came out, the team at PC have done a great job so far and I feel some people do not appreciate what has changed.

 

Oh nice video BTW it's what I have been pushing for some time especially for new Gazelle sim pilots. :thumbup:

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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I agree with FragBum that the Gazelle is actually quite easy to fly once you get the hang of it.

 

I started in the Huey which was a huge help when it came to the Gazelle's flight characteristics.

 

I rarely move my stick/cyclic more than maybe 1 inch in any direction EVER.

Most of the time I rely solely on the Trim to fly with very small adjustment inputs with the stick/cyclic when necessary.

The only time I am flying and relying on the stick alone is when I have to do some "hotdogging" type flying. Even then, I set my trim for speed and then steer as need be.

 

BTW - I have adjusted my Y Saturation to 80% and have a Deadzone of 3 for the Center Detente. With that minimal deadzone, I have very smooth, deliberate flights.

 

Now if only PolyChop would Fix the Issues !

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3852868#post3852868

SnowTiger:joystick:

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  • 1 month later...

Thanks for these tips CHPL - they make handling this thing much more manageable without taking away too much from the liveliness - at least on my warthog setup. I have also added a curve to that - and it works for me.

 

When I first got a DCS chopper (B.S.), I used a Saitek X52 Pro which had much looser springs - and tbh, that was a lot better for fine control of rotary a/c IMO, but most modulse I have are fixed wing - so WH it is.

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  • 2 weeks later...
@CHPL

 

For most people I think it's this initial experience that sets the user experience for some people and hence maybe they pick up on "The Flight Model" arguments and use this as their rationale, incorrectly implying "if I can't control the Gazelle" it must be the flight model and not the input controls.

 

After some initial adjustement I i've learnt to control this helicopter as good as with the others, i can't say i'm dissatisfied with the result. What has always bothered me, it's a sensation of "low res" of the flight model, like the tables from which is formed contain a small amount of values.

 

this translates imo in unrealistic transition phases. Another impression i've got after flying it for some hours, is that the collective variation effects on pitch/roll/yaw are way too linear and inconsistent.

 

Under this respect, helis like the Hip, or especially the Huey, have a very recognizable reaction to, for ex., an abrupt increase in torque. This fm instead, seems almost to be "missing" that part.

 

Try putting the heli at a slight roll angle, then quickly (or slowly) increase collective.

I mean, what happens doesn't seem realistic to me, it remembers me of the behavior of old DOS flightsims. I'm not saying that the true gazelle can't be like this at all, but the impression that the fm is missing some data in that department is heavy.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

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I'd like to discuss this in more depth I'm away from home ATM but yes even perhaps in a separate thread.

 

I wasn't saying it's perfect and understand that the team are reviewing the FM.

 

Agree large increase in collective gives torque warning but shouldn't that cause rotor RPM to drop?

Also auto-rotate your supposed to watch rotor RPM and keep it in check right. :D

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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Also finding the Gazelle easy to fly. But assuming that the FM actually is accurate, the AP/SAS system and its light weight apparently makes it so simple to fly and unaffected by phenomena (and practically cant be disabled to see if the FM and AP counteract things or just pretends that it doesn't exist because of lack of data) that it feels just like flying in the likes of low fidelity sims such as Arma 3 or War Thunder.

 

Which would then mean that its simply a wholly uninteresting module both in terms of flight characteristics and (lack of) systems.

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Also finding the Gazelle easy to fly. But assuming that the FM actually is accurate, the AP/SAS system and its light weight apparently makes it so simple to fly and unaffected by phenomena (and practically cant be disabled to see if the FM and AP counteract things or just pretends that it doesn't exist because of lack of data) that it feels just like flying in the likes of low fidelity sims such as Arma 3 or War Thunder.

 

Which would then mean that its simply a wholly uninteresting module both in terms of flight characteristics and (lack of) systems.

 

So to the Mi8 the KA50 and the Huey are equally easy to fly so I don't see your point.

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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I'm by no means an expert, let alone I know if it's correct or not, but I think it's a bit weird indeed. It seems lowering collective doesn't do that much in terms of altitude, whereas the Huey lowering collective means you drop the helo, which I would expect it to.

The way it is now it's pretty weird to land, because the helo won't drop as fast as I would expect.

 

That being said, I do like this little thing. Pretty easy to fly, easy to deliver weapons to a target, and it looks cool. :)

 

Hope they review the FM cocerning the collective.

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I don't think there is anything wrong with the collective.

It is a light chopper and therefore unlike the Huey, it doesn't drop like a stone when you reduce collective.

 

In fact, I don't think the collective works the same in the Gazelle as it does other/heavier choppers. The collective doesn't seem to control altitude like other choppers such as the Ka-50. The cyclic seems to have about as much control over altitude as the collective.

 

For sure it is it's own chopper and therefore has it's own unique characteristics. I don't think the flight model needs any attention, especially when multiple RL SA342 pilots have flown this Module and say it's as close as you are going to get in a Sim. It's just Different. And again, I think what each of us experiences is weighed against other choppers we've flown or expectations we may have in advance as well as the differences of HOTAS's used.

After watching "Flying Soldiers" Episode 3, I learned allot about the sensitivity of the controls and tuned my Cyclic to reflect the actual aircraft's sensitivity and range of movement.

 

SnowTiger:joystick:

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After some initial adjustement I i've learnt to control this helicopter as good as with the others, i can't say i'm dissatisfied with the result. What has always bothered me, it's a sensation of "low res" of the flight model, like the tables from which is formed contain a small amount of values.

 

this translates imo in unrealistic transition phases. Another impression i've got after flying it for some hours, is that the collective variation effects on pitch/roll/yaw are way too linear and inconsistent.

 

Under this respect, helis like the Hip, or especially the Huey, have a very recognizable reaction to, for ex., an abrupt increase in torque. This fm instead, seems almost to be "missing" that part.

 

Try putting the heli at a slight roll angle, then quickly (or slowly) increase collective.

I mean, what happens doesn't seem realistic to me, it remembers me of the behavior of old DOS flightsims. I'm not saying that the true gazelle can't be like this at all, but the impression that the fm is missing some data in that department is heavy.

 

As an observation, I get very similar results with the Mi8 and Gazelle and Huey. I tried both rolling left and rolling right from a hover and pulled the collective without correcting for torque change but staying within torque limits.

 

On right roll torque pulled the nose to the left and as the aircraft rotated the nose went up and tail down. The Mi8 did the same thing but the magnitude and lag resulted in a less dramatic result.

 

Whilst left roll the torque moment pulled the nose left and down initiating a kinda spiral descent manoeuvre.

 

The Huey had similar results but with opposite effect for left and right roll.

 

I tried at a slight maybe 5 deg and also at about 15 deg roll angles, have I missed something?

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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I don't think there is anything wrong with the collective.

It is a light chopper and therefore unlike the Huey, it doesn't drop like a stone when you reduce collective.

 

In fact, I don't think the collective works the same in the Gazelle as it does other/heavier choppers. The collective doesn't seem to control altitude like other choppers such as the Ka-50. The cyclic seems to have about as much control over altitude as the collective.

 

For sure it is it's own chopper and therefore has it's own unique characteristics. I don't think the flight model needs any attention, especially when multiple RL SA342 pilots have flown this Module and say it's as close as you are going to get in a Sim. It's just Different. And again, I think what each of us experiences is weighed against other choppers we've flown or expectations we may have in advance as well as the differences of HOTAS's used.

After watching "Flying Soldiers" Episode 3, I learned allot about the sensitivity of the controls and tuned my Cyclic to reflect the actual aircraft's sensitivity and range of movement.

 

 

Hello, in fact the FM has a LOT of problems...

Polychop is supposed to work on that but they are now focused on their next helo and don't want to loose time with the Gazelle because they won't earn money anymore with it....

I have worked with Polychop trying to help them to fix the big FM issues. I performed a test flight with them and I exposed 4 big issues in the FM which are nonsense for a helo.

 

Just try something: you fly the Gazelle at 100km/h and apply a 2cm right input on your stick and maintain it. The Gazelle is never stopping rolling on the right!!!!!!! THIS IS THE FIRst BIG ISSUE. They have coded the FM without considering that it's a helicopter!!!!!

À steady x cm displacement of the cyclic is equal to a steady roll angle IRL for the Gazelle and the Fennec and the Puma etc.... (I only fly on French helo IRL)

 

I am fed up with working with them now. I flew the Gazelle 150hours IRL when starting to learn to fly 15 years ago. Now I have 3000h of fight and still continue to fly every day IRL.

I have asked some current Gazelle pilots to join me in order to help Polychop but Polychop seems to be deaf.

 

When I read that ALAT Pilots told the FM was good I really want to meet them because we are a lot of French helo pilots (French air force and Alat) to find the Polychop Gazelle sooooooo bad with the FM and sooooo unrealistic.

 

I you want to fly a helicopter which seems to be realistic, take a look at the MI8. We are having a lot of fun to fly it. Only the Vortex seems to be overrated. IRL With the MI8 in DCS, the Vortex is binary coded.... But apart from this weird behavior with Vortex, the MI8 is realistic enough.

 

I would love to fly the Gazelle in DCS but it's impossible today for real pilot to have fun with it in a simulation. Perhaps in arcade mode it would be fun, but we are playing DCS for simulation experience


Edited by Damcopter
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That's fun, that's the way it should be, and the Gazelle behaves like a Formula One car in the air.

 

There are many different opinions about the flight model, and we may argue about how realistic it is, or not.

But the main question is how can I fly this thing in DCS. And have fun with it.

 

 

 

 

I just want to put in a massive THANK YOU to the original poster for putting up that video.

 

I already had the UH-1H Iroquois and had found it insanely frustrating. Although I liked the look of the SA342 Gazelle and would have liked to have flown it in DCS, I'd been baulking at it, on account of a lot of hostile reviews and complaints about the sensitivity of it. Having watched the video, I finally was brave enough to get the module, and yes...

 

I definitely needed to apply those tweaks suggested. And they worked a treat.

 

I am REALLY enjoying this module. :)

 

 

In case it helps anyone else, here is precisely what I am using (I have a CH-Products Fighter Stick pro and CH-Products Pro Pedals).

 

              |<--  STICK  -->|   PEDALS
                Z     Y     X       Z
             Coll  Ptch  Roll    Rddr
             -------------------------
Deadzone         0     0     0       0
Saturation X   100   100   100     100
Saturation Y    70    40    25      60
Curvature        0     0     0       0

 

I also "invert" the collective so pulling the dial towards me is adding lift.

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Hello, in fact the FM has a LOT of problems...

Polychop is supposed to work on that but they are now focused on their next helo and don't want to loose time with the Gazelle because they won't earn money anymore with it....

I have worked with Polychop trying to help them to fix the big FM issues. I performed a test flight with them and I exposed 4 big issues in the FM which are nonsense for a helo.

 

Just try something: you fly the Gazelle at 100km/h and apply a 2cm right input on your stick and maintain it. The Gazelle is never stopping rolling on the right!!!!!!! THIS IS THE FIRst BIG ISSUE. They have coded the FM without considering that it's a helicopter!!!!!

À steady x cm displacement of the cyclic is equal to a steady roll angle IRL for the Gazelle and the Fennec and the Puma etc.... (I only fly on French helo IRL)

 

This doesn't seem to be correct, cyclic displacement is rate of roll not an amount of roll??

 

 

I am fed up with working with them now. I flew the Gazelle 150hours IRL when starting to learn to fly 15 years ago. Now I have 3000h of fight and still continue to fly every day IRL.

I have asked some current Gazelle pilots to join me in order to help Polychop but Polychop seems to be deaf.

 

When I read that ALAT Pilots told the FM was good I really want to meet them because we are a lot of French helo pilots (French air force and Alat) to find the Polychop Gazelle sooooooo bad with the FM and sooooo unrealistic.

 

I you want to fly a helicopter which seems to be realistic, take a look at the MI8. We are having a lot of fun to fly it. Only the Vortex seems to be overrated. IRL With the MI8 in DCS, the Vortex is binary coded.... But apart from this weird behavior with Vortex, the MI8 is realistic enough.

 

Is it? Cyclic displacement is possibly inconsistent to documentation with AP on, it's more like that of a plane not a helo, although do try it with AP off this seems more correct in that cyclic displacement corresponds with rate of roll like it does in the Huey and Gazelle.

 

Try it "Windows" + "Shift" + "A" to turn it off

 

I would love to fly the Gazelle in DCS but it's impossible today for real pilot to have fun with it in a simulation. Perhaps in arcade mode it would be fun, but we are playing DCS for simulation experience

 

Each to their own, although I would have expected a somewhat more informed argument from such an experienced pilot, perhaps with theory to explain the various points not just a potty mouth. :mad:

 

BTW Pollychop have gone on record indicating that the Gazelle will be reviewed, lets see what happens. :D:thumbup:

Control is an illusion which usually shatters at the least expected moment.

Gazelle Mini-gun version is endorphins with rotors. See above.

 

Currently rolling with a Asus Z390 Prime, 9600K, 32GB RAM, SSD, 2080Ti and Windows 10Pro, Rift CV1. bu0836x and Scratch Built Pedals, Collective and Cyclic.

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I will repeat this again. Polychop is working in 2 things right now. A review for the gazelle and their new project at the same time. The update for the gazelle is supposed to be released this year. BTW, try to keep it civil guys.

Chinook lover - Rober -

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