[DCS BUG] AIM54 is PITBULL from the start at any range

[TAW_Blaze]

You have to have the target crank from left to right, you will then see the seemingly dead missile follow the movements.

 

Not in SP. I tried with a zig zag route following AI setup and the missile was flying 1G straight as soon as I stopped supporting.

 

So far there seems to be nothing wrong. If something's up then it's MP only but I'd be surprised if that was the case. I also tried with datalink in SP but didn't affect it.

 

The only thing I noticed is how terrible the APN control is when exiting the loft and going pitbull.

Edited March 27, 2019 by <Blaze>

[Coxy_99]

Its MP based.

[TAW_Blaze]

We tested it in MP with a 3rd person hosting so we are only fighting client vs client.

 

Overall our finding is that there is a quite heavy desync between shooter of the missile and everyone else on the server.

 

There are 2 main cases:

 

1. Shooter drops lock immediately after launch. In this case:

- shooter perspective: missile flying ballistic, when it reaches around pitbull range it snaps to target

- everyone else (including target, server, etc): missile continuously tracking despite no support from launching aircraft, at all ranges. Missile flies past you and when it hits you according to shooter perspective you explode, even though on your screen the missile is miles behind

 

2. Shooter keeps supporting with radar

- only lofting is desynced, otherwise guidance is matching between shooter and target perspectives

 

It seems to behave similarly with the 120 and not just the 54 but due to the ranges this issue is the most obvious with the 54. In the 2nd 120 shot you can similarly see how for a while it is going ballistic and when reaching pitbull range it snaps to target

 

Overall the testing procedure was:

- fire 54 at 30-40 miles, turn cold

- with the 120 fire between 20-25 miles and immediately radar off after launch

- after radar is not supporting, target turns 40-50 degrees to the right

 

*last engagement shows 54 shot being supported by aircraft radar until impact.. every other scenario the launching aircraft immediately aborts supporting the missile

 

Now this raises some questions like..

- Why are other clients than the shooter seeing as if the missile is tracking them all along, when it is in fact not?

- What is the primary source here? To me it seems like everything is calculated based on shooter client.. if the missile hit you on the shooter's end, you die, if the missile hits the ground on the shooters end, it disappears from the sky..

- From shooter perspective what is causing the missile to reacquire at pitbull range? Is it the overdone seeker FoV or something is triggering it to look there (data from server side)?

 

I made a new DCS MP bug report thread: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=3860594#post3860594

guidance_desync_server_pov.zip

guidance_desync_shooter_pov.zip

guidance_desync_target_pov.zip

Edited March 27, 2019 by <Blaze>

[Banzaiib]

MP missiles are completely borked in DCS. SAM behavior is completely different in SP than in MP. It's really ridiculous.

[mrkline]

I think there's some misinformation here. Yes, ARH missile behavior has its quirks (lofting desync, going pitbull at a hardcoded range, etc.). I hope these will be addressed soon. But, the missiles don't seem to magically track targets before going pitbull.

 

I've attached six TacView tracks of me firing a Phoenix at a Backfire, about 30 miles out. Half are in TWS, and half are in STT; the behavior was the same in both cases. In each radar mode I:

1. Turned cold (and lost the radar contact) within a second or two of launching
   
2. Supported the missile for about 10 seconds
   
3. Supported the missile for about 20 seconds
   

 

In the first two scenarios, the missile stops lofting and snaps downward as soon as I lose the contact, but it does not immediately start tracking. It instead flies a straight line towards the contact's last known position until it reaches pitbull range. Once pitbull, the missile snaps towards the target, tries to play catch-up (since it was aiming at a point behind the target), and loses too much energy to hit.

 

In the last scenario, where I supported the missile the longest, the missile is in or near pitbull range by the time I lose the contact. Having lofted most of the way, the missile has plenty of energy to hit the target.

 

FWIW, I ran this in a multiplayer session, and a friend ran a similar experiment in singleplayer. So unless

• shooting at a human target, or
  
• being in a heavily populated server like BlueFlag or DDCS
  

somehow impacts missile guidance (which I highly doubt), Phoenixes do not magically track their targets before going pitbull. I'm pretty sure people got this idea because they do suddenly stop lofting and change course. But they're only snapping to the target's last known position, so supporting your missiles increases your PK, as it should. I think the perception also comes from the desync in what the shooter and the rest of the server are seeing, as <Blaze> points out.

phoenix-test.zip

Edited March 29, 2019 by mrkline

[BlackPixxel]

...But, the missiles don't seem to magically track targets before going pitbull.

 

It is only a multiplayer issue and never reproducable on the tacview of the shooter, because for the shooter the missile behaviour is always correct.

 

Both server and client do not get informed about the loss of datalink support as soon as the shooter leaves the target. As a result, both server and target will see the missile fly a smooth curve towards the target, tracking it the whole time. You can see that in Blaze's tacview

 

Additionally, the lofting is only synced for the server, but not for the other players. Other players will see the missile flying the direct path.

 

These two issues cause huge differences in missile trajectory between shooter and target. The problem is that the shooter calculates the kill for his missile. If the missile hits the target on the PC of the shooter, the target will be dead.

 

But the target may not have even got a warning of the missile going active, because for him it was already slow and still far away due to lack of lofting.

The target may have notched the missile perfectly on his side, but the actual missile path on the shooters PC could have been very different, so that the target is no longer notching.

 

In such cases the target will die without doing anything wrong on his side, which is not how it should be.

[mrkline]

Both server and client do not get informed about the loss of datalink support as soon as the shooter leaves the target. As a result, both server and target will see the missile fly a smooth curve towards the target, tracking it the whole time. You can see that in Blaze's tacview.

 

Right, but:

If the missile hits the target on the PC of the shooter, the target will be dead.

 

It doesn't matter what the server and target see - since the shooter is who determines what the missile actually does, the missile isn't "passively" tracking, even if that's what everyone else sees.

 

But the target may not have even got a warning of the missile going active, because for him it was already slow and still far away due to lack of lofting.

The target may have notched the missile perfectly on his side, but the actual missile path on the shooters PC could have been very different, so that the target is no longer notching.

 

In such cases the target will die without doing anything wrong on his side, which is not how it should be.

 

Right, and this is an entirely separate problem, previously acknowledged by Cobra to be on ED's side. The desync is a serious issue, but I was responding to claims that the missiles also passively seek their targets when you turn cold.

Edited March 29, 2019 by mrkline

[BlackPixxel]

Yes, the missile on the shooters side is not doing a magic tracking, you are right.

 

The Phoenix itself is not bugged, but the netcode / synchronisation is.

 

This is a huge problem, because you cannot defend against a missile that is actually somewhere else.

[Frostie]

but I was responding to claims that the missiles also passively seek their targets when you turn cold.

 

When exactly that is happening here.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3861576&postcount=8

[Falcon_S]

F14 cold - missiles tracking. DCS Multiplayer.

 

What shooter/server see i don't know - but i just know that these missile somehow are guided right to me.

54-1.zip

54-2.zip

[TAW_Blaze]

Did you literally not even bother to look into anything that I posted?

[Falcon_S]

Did you literally not even bother to look into anything that I posted?

 

I am very familiar with your presentation.

 

My post is just one more evidence of this problem.

[TAW_Blaze]

You're consistently just presenting one aspect of it. It's inconclusive.

[Falcon_S]

Of course - is big problem when missile go on me when no logic to do that.

 

EDIT:

BTW... we do some short test few days ago but we didn't have time to go in details and repeat it. I see something (on the fly) ... i think problem is on STT shot. With TWS no desync or desync is random. As i said need to check more later.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Falcon_S

[TAW_Blaze]

It doesn't work like that because missiles are calculated based on shooter's data. It works the same STT or TWS. The main factor is shooter dropping lock / bug.

 

The only issue that this causes is that the defender has fake information regarding where the missile is.

[Frostie]

Not in SP. I tried with a zig zag route following AI setup and the missile was flying 1G straight as soon as I stopped supporting.

 

So far there seems to be nothing wrong. If something's up then it's MP only but I'd be surprised if that was the case. I also tried with datalink in SP but didn't affect it.

 

The only thing I noticed is how terrible the APN control is when exiting the loft and going pitbull.

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3861576&postcount=8

 

This was done in sp and all my testing has been done sp.

 

The behaviour below is clearly a bug.

As soon as the missile is launched the F-14s radar is switched off.

the missile flies out at 358 deg (353 tacview)

the target then cranks to the missiles left

the missile follows to 356 deg (351 tacview)

the target then starts cranking to the right

the missile follows and slowly turns to 002 deg (356 tacview)

just before the missile goes active the target starts cranking to the left

the missile starts following again just before going active and violently nosing down.

The tacview is included here, the track is in the above thread.

This bug is happening to all missiles in DCS, it is an ED problem.

Tacview-20190328-DCS.zip.rar

Edited April 10, 2019 by Frostie

[Fri13]

This should be fixed on the current Open Beta version now for at least AIM-7. It was operating as AIM-120 active seeker from the launch.

 

Who knows is it now fixed with AIM-54 SARH etc?

[nighthawk2174]

Seems to be related to the HOJ function in the missile code as that is what ED turned off for the AIM7's

[D4n]

So, still reproducible? Or fixed?

[Coxy_99]

So, still reproducible? Or fixed?

 

I doubt it just launch jump in spectators and watch it hit.

[D4n]

I doubt it just launch jump in spectators and watch it hit.

But target needs to check if RWR missile launch warning...

 

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[royalwin]

FALCON is 100% correct on this. And that these missiles are allowed in SATAL competition is not a very good thing...

[royalwin]

And... it's in single player too. Here's a 30nm shot, immediately turn cold and break lock. Watch from POV of missile as it 100% tracks the continuously maneuvering target and then goes pitbull at about 8NM.

30nmAim54SelfGuiding.zip

[Pikey]

Wait there is more to this.

 

 

In MP it makes a difference WHO fires the Phoenix. Having bad luck from RIO point of view. In tacview, the pilot and RIO are also completely desynched.... I mean, by miles and miles, the missile is nowhere near where one of them sees it.

 

 

So question, is it better to fire from pilot or RIO?

[D4n]

Wait there is more to this.

 

 

In MP it makes a difference WHO fires the Phoenix. Having bad luck from RIO point of view. In tacview, the pilot and RIO are also completely desynched.... I mean, by miles and miles, the missile is nowhere near where one of them sees it.

 

 

So question, is it better to fire from pilot or RIO?

Afaik the pilot can instantly launch the Phoenix (not sure if realistic behavior) when the RIO always has to hold the button for 3 seconds (realistic). So currently, the pilot would be better off launching. (Pilot gets all kills in score chart anyways... ED... xD)

 

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